Wave-shape of Rockmore and Rosen's Theremin to see and to think

Posted: 10/26/2010 4:05:13 PM 1

From: santiago, chile

Joined: 3/17/2006

Hi

here you have the cap of these two Theremins, the waveshape, amount of harmonics and the intensity of those, all without vibrato, does anyone can do something to reach this kind of treasures? (1rst reply of this, down)

Clara Rockmore in E3

Lucie Below Rosen Theremin in D3

PD: the pitch is not exactly by the calibartion of my PC, sorry. The first one was made by the first notes of "Kaddish" played by Rockmore, and the second one was made through of the recent video of the visit of Rob Schwimmer to Caramoor

Posted: 10/26/2010 7:06:44 PM 2

FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

threads - posts

Thank you for these robonil!
Have put them into links to make life easier..

Clara Rockmore in E3
(https://4729567208463850517-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/thereminchile/home/Clara%20Rockmore%20theremin%20E3.JPG?attachauth=ANoY7cq6YGHcX9uMHOregobRN1GJWUCRowxrXaY4uXtChFtqDVDItO2ZUGy1Kx19BC40IlKOtcEer6v4iIdrTJHBTCYoR95Mmds223c-HR8em7QQqYkTlasRR3rFHwefG6VARpvMYlnPJQznir_Sg_OkcHdgTHROAY6Ebk6FhhfqLbeebTlo90tl6NUl-StxRcG0gpmfyMK0dpmyQSm5npVU_x5N0XJoSKJmaxO6uSpgywNcyOINHUM%3D&attredirects=0)
Lucie Below Rosen Theremin in D3 (https://4729567208463850517-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/thereminchile/home/lucie%20below%20theremin%20D3.JPG?attachauth=ANoY7coC0mRqfigiWrnEgqvesnHpxE8rTBwN9RQRL0QPhv_aLPFhezeRGzyQ2_8O6qtMVPoB0EKEYTbpMWwLNofUNrFTxz_XuIQld8kLg60xMZvVIcfm2BLKnS7v0wd1ruFPCQtbjRmZ29xCBDpBIBFsp_yLVkk9OnSRTkK9jGyUkkF31V7maiPEATQSrqfQzMl36mFsG6btR9Dc1iCdZ6CVMN6S-lgKkKKMzfLLfdtR4Sb-GB4q8dc%3D&attredirects=0)

Link?

These are, indeed, treasures!

I would love you to post these up at Element-14 Theremin General / Resources
http://www.element-14.com/community/groups/theremin-general-resources?view=documents

Or could I have permission to copy them there?

Also, If you could post the source (audio) files there - or send me me these samples to post (I am being
a bit cheeky, I know ;) that would be great. (
Fred.

P.S. ... If you edit your post.. put [i] Lucie Below Rosen Theremin in D3 (https://472..{the whole link}...attredirects=0)[/i]

You will get a tidy link, like mine above, and the page will fit on the browser screen! ;-)

Posted: 10/27/2010 6:10:40 AM 3

robonil

From: santiago, chile

Joined: 3/17/2006

threads - posts

Thank you Fred, of course you have the permission to put this archives or links where you think it's ok, after that i'll edit this post with your links, the audio files i didn't saved it!, but i can do it again, i analized less than 1 second of music, to avoid the vibrato, i wait for some reflexion about this subject

Posted: 10/27/2010 1:44:28 PM 4

djpb_designs

From: Escondido, CA

Joined: 2/6/2008

threads - posts

What's with the ridiculously long lines in this post? :)

So it would appear that Clara's theremin generates many more harmonics than Lucie's, since the waveforms are approaching squarewave ... steep sides, while Lucie's looks more like what you get when you manually sum up a few sinewave signals.

Posted: 10/27/2010 5:08:29 PM 5

FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

threads - posts

[i]"What's with the ridiculously long lines in this post? :)" - Db [/i]

Hi Don,
The long lines are a result of the links not being embedded between[i] and [/i] ..

When one has any link, they should be pasted between these - and if one has a long link, it should be pasted as in the example
given by TW: [i]ThereminWorld (http://www.thereminworld.com)

..which becomes [/i]
ThereminWorld (http://www.thereminworld.com)

It seems that, when an unbroken address us given, without enclosing the address in [i]
description (address)[/i]
something in the system gets its knickers in a twist!

Jason or John usually fix these problems by editing the posts..

But if people learn how to do the job themselves, it will make their lives a bit easier and make the posts more readable.

This is the reason I am going into a longwinded explanation! (apart from the fact that I love being longwinded! -LOL! ;-)

;-)

Robonil - If you are having difficulty, just delete your links,
and say "see links in Freds post below" -
Your URL's are particularly (awesomely!) long, and I screwed up my first attempt at producing "TW friendly" links from them.

Fred.

Posted: 10/27/2010 5:54:56 PM 6

FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

threads - posts

These files have now been posted to Element-14:
Clara Rockmore Theremin's Waveforms.jpg (http://www.element-14.com/community/docs/DOC-24877/l/clararockmorethereminwavesjpg)

[i]
Clara Rockmore Theremin's Waveforms.jpg (http://www.element-14.com/community/docs/DOC-24877/l/clararockmorethereminwavesjpg)[/i]

and

Lucie Rosen's Theremin Waveforms.jpg (http://www.element-14.com/community/docs/DOC-24878/l/lucierosenthereminwavesjpg)

[i]
Lucie Rosen's Theremin Waveforms.jpg (http://www.element-14.com/community/docs/DOC-24878/l/lucierosenthereminwavesjpg)[/i]

Element 14 is a great site for dumping Theremin stuff! You are free to post anything - .zip .pdf .xls .mp3 - whatever you want provided you
sign up (free) and the content is of a technical nature.

Check it out! see: http://www.element-14.com/community/groups/theremin-general-resources?view=overview

One can download and upload files by using "Create a document" or you can start a discussion
and attach whatever you want to your posting.

I am NOT trying to compete with TW! - For me, TW is Theremin home..
I want E-14 to be a Theremin Technical Reference Library!

Fred.

Posted: 10/27/2010 6:10:17 PM 7

robonil

From: santiago, chile

Joined: 3/17/2006

threads - posts

Thank you Fred, i guess now it's right.
Do you Know if it is possible to modify the peak of a sine wave, putting an inversal sine? like the wave shape of these Theremins? also i guess that the speaker made the half of the final timbre. I'll try to work on it

Posted: 10/27/2010 6:28:26 PM 8

FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

threads - posts

[i]"Thank you Fred, i guess now it's right.
Do you Know if it is possible to modify the peak of a sine wave, putting an inversal sine? like the wave shape of these Theremins? also i guess that the speaker made the half of the final timbre. I'll try to work on it" - Robonil [/i]

All looks great now! ;-)

There are many ways to generate and/or modify waveforms.. One can start with a harmonically rich source, and selectively filter harmonics out (subtractive synthesis) or you can add individual harmonics (additive synthesis) or a host of other methods (frequency modulation, phase distortion, etc)

If one is trying to recreate the sound of an existing ELECTRONIC instrument, then I think (particularly for Theremins which have quite simple waveforms and not vast spectral complexity) additive synthesis is probably the best / easiest.. With independent control of 8 harmonics, one get a good aproximation of most Theremin waveforms, and with 16 harmonics one can (to my ears) mimic any Theremin even down at lowest bass..

However.. It IS the amplifier / Speaker which what gives the true character to the sound - and this is MUCH more difficult to 'clone'! - There are resonances and distortions one hears on a 'subliminal' level, and which do not show up on a simple analysis.

Fred.

Posted: 10/27/2010 8:40:44 PM 9

Hippie403

From: Melbourne, Australia

Joined: 7/15/2010

threads - posts

ahhh but what setting was Lucie's theremin on?
Doesn't it go from 1-11 on a tone selector?

Posted: 10/27/2010 10:57:02 PM 10

FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

threads - posts

[i]"ahhh but what setting was Lucie's theremin on?
Doesn't it go from 1-11 on a tone selector?" - Hippie [/i]

Yes, it does.. And this information would make samples / analysis far more useful! - Alas, as I understand it, the sample was extracted from the video and not much attention is given to these matters.. (this is not anyones fault - it was not the object of the excersise)

I would really love to have a set of samples of each of the settings on Lucie's Theremin, over a reasonable number of pitches over its range.. The tone selector switch is extremely interesting mainly because of its simplicity - it simply switches different value capacitors across the primary of the loudspeaker matching/coupling transformer, but I expect this, in combination with the tubes driving this resonant load, produces a result far greater than the 'sum of the parts'.. All the tone 'shaping' is done at the power amplifier, so sampling must be done with a microphone to capture it.

I find this whole issue extremely frustrating and almost incomprehensible.. We have only a few functional complete classic instruments remaining.. We have a reasonably large community of Theremin admirers.. But we do not have a collection of the sounds these wonderful instruments produce.

But I had better stop myself before this becomes an obsession - I dont think my wife and kids would be happy about me selling the house so that I could travel the world recording Theremins comprehensively ..

But someone should do it!! LOL!

;-)

Fred.