Bagpipes and Theremin Together On Stage

Hi Gordon, thanks for your comments and insights..

<< Warning to other readers - this post is quite off - topic and not at all about the TED performance >>

The reason I believe tha I fall into the "apostate" camp now, is nothing to do with the sound that the theremin does or could produce (and I think Coalports comments regarding vocal qualities is particularly pertinent here) - its to do with the interface.

IMO, the interface - the "no contact" "ES field sensing" basic concept which defines a theremin, is  completely useless and hopelessly, fataly, iredeemably flawed - it is this interface which makes the theremin difficult to play, subject to detuning and drift, subject to interference even from passive capacitive bulk, let alone active electricals,  and locks the theremin to a fairly narrow set of tones (or at least does with conventional theremin designs) .

This interface does not serve the developer or the musician - IMO its ONLY outstanding feature is its novelty and visual appeal. IMO, the theremin interface was an (at the time)exciting adaptation of Lev's work with capacitive sensing, but as a musical instrument interface to electronic sound production in this age, its a joke.. *particularly for those wanting to play tunes or harmonise or whatever, accurately, in any musical scale.

I dont want to go into any detail - but actually, quite a few musicians (non thereminists) I met at HO-2010 who wandered by after they had performed, and played with my theremins told me this - "yeah, it could be a fun toy" was essentially what they were saying loud and clear - but as a true believer, I wasnt listening.

And the last couple of years, while life fell apart completely and I was/am being forced to take stock of my situation and examine my options - 1) walk away completely 2) continue my present direction 3) salvage what I can and change direction 4) myriad of variatons on those - And being in a situation where I couldnt physically produce anything at this time, I suppose I focussed on (3)..

And I realised that the thing least worthy of salvaging was the thing I have spent most time on - The interface.. Because whatever anyone does, if you use a distance / capacitance sensing interface without tactile feedback / visual feedback / consistant field and all the other aspects of this interface, no matter what one does there will only ever at most be 100 people on this planet who will be able to play it well - (naturals, and those willing to put in the effort to master this interface).

So I changed this interface - have gone the route of linear capacitive sensing surfaces where one can move ones hand over a flat strip or around a shaped disk or whatever - you dont need to press the sensor but can - you can slide your hand over it as lightly as you want etc.. Its pure capacitive sensing, but the sensing is not primarily about hand distance from the sensor, its about hand position along / above the sensor and it still uses theremin technology - And the irony is that in leaving the theremin, what looks to me like what may be an ideal theremin topology has appeared .

And the whole scheme, whether implemented through the theremin or some other interface, can be entirely modular ..

But as to whether anyone will see any of this stuff from me - quite doubtful really.. At best I will probably only get to leaving a couple of working prototypes and reasonably extensive documentation on-line.

Fred.

*added after my next posting

<< COMPLETELY OT ! >>

"There is one traditional sound, however, that one cannot achieve no matter how much studying one is prepared to do, and that is the sound of the human voice. Either you are born with a great singing voice, or you are not. 

........... The theremin is a surrogate human being and it is its unique human quality that gave the instrument its reputation as the spooky sound effect 'par excellence'.

If someone (such as myself) wishes to explore the traditional soprano repertoire, the only recourse is to learn to play precision theremin because the "proper instrument" is not an option." - Coalport

If there was a microphone or something you could hum into, which had some keys on it you could use to control octave shifting and perhaps some other stuff - say a couple of pressure sensors for vibrato / intonation  or whatever..

And you could hum at whatever register suited your voice, and shift what you hum to higher or lower registers and apply variation - perhaps one hand holding the 'microphone' and the other manipulating timbre / formant / even volume ..

And what came out was a tone with controlled vocal charactaristics.. Would you be interested in such an instrument - and would you switch to it from the theremin ?

Somehow, I think probably not ;-)

Fred, if you fall into the apostate camp, and I number amongst the true believers, then I must take issue with your observation that "The ones the true believers hate most are the apostates!"

Not at all! I think you are referring there to the zealot - the evil twin of the true believer, the difference being that the the zealot lacks the ability to acknowledge the absurdity of his own position, to laugh at himself. The zealot might hate the apostate and condemn him to hell, but the true believer not so much. In short, you're right, the theremin is a silly instrument in many ways - but - that doesn't bother me. I like it and I am glad I chose it. <shrug> I will leave it to coalport to wax lyrical about the magic of space control. He does it so much better than me.

So what is to be done with the apostate? Well, as a true believer I would like to save you, but I'm not sure you want to be saved. :-) So instead, please continue doing what you are doing. To have someone who knows a damn about theremins designing modular components that are good for theremins and that would also appeal to the broader synth user market might be a better business plan than just trying to appeal to thereminists alone and would certainly please me. 

Gordon, I do not see you as a "true believer"

- I think that for the sort of music you create, the inconsistancies and other "issues" intrinsic in the theremin may well make this instrument well suited and a sensible choice!

Which almost brings us full circle - back to "classical" musicians having part in the development of the tones and technology .. You do not like one of the most linear theremins (E-Pro) - the theremins "feel" is important to you, but quite a personal thing I suspect... And I suspect that for your "perfect theremin" no input from anyone (except you) would be able to define it.

If there wasnt the theremin, I could see you playing a signal generator with a broomstick handle connected to its pitch wheel, just as "easily".

For you, and all other thereminists not interested in playing "tunes" though, no new theremin needs to be developed - there are loads on the market from toys through to the LV and Burns units through to Moog.. The sound from the theremin is unimportant, as it will be bent out of recognition anyway if you want to do this - oh sure, a few brighter waveforms may be wanted, but they arent critical..

Its those who actually need a better theremin (those who want to play more precisely than they are able, to play repeatable tunes etc) who are the ones for whom the whole theremin interface, not just the theremin or model thereof, needs IMO to be changed - Its the "true believers" and "zealots" who are the ones who most need to realize that the instrument has a fatal flaw and that, unless they are one of the chosen 144 they can never be any good at playing it - and its the evangelists who spout "theremin purity" and damn the "blasphemers" who bring their idol into "disrepute" by using it to make spooky noises - They need to wake up and realise that everyone not in their club is laughing at them, because their idol is a pathetic joke!

You may be right about my approach. I remember having an etch-a-sketch as a child, and not using it to recreate, with difficulty, masterpieces of the past.

Spot on Gordon!  IMO That exactly sums up the absurdity! - but what a buzz for someone inclined to that sort of thing, just to be able to do it! - regardless of how silly or pointless it is.

And taking the above a step further - imagine if etch-a-sketch was to make a pro version, and consulted with top fine artists for advice.. Could the resulting product, using the same basic interface, ever make it truly as good for fine artists as the other methods they have already ? - And would the input from fine artists make it easier for others (those not skilled in traditional fine arts) to produce real masters (or copies thereof) using an etch-a-sketch?

No! - Anyone who can produce the above picture using an etch-a-sketch could produce as good and probably better picture using a pencil and paper - The only people who MIGHT be able to produce a "better" picture using an etch-a-sketch are those who are using its "limitations" in a way that is useful to them - to get straight lines without using a ruler, by moving on one axis - or using it to deliberately cause them to create images they would not produce with pencil and paper, simply because with pencil and paper they are more in control - and the E-A-S "distorts" this control.

As in - it may be great for "experimental" or "avant-gardiste" or "aleatoric" - and whats produced may be beautiful - more beautiful than what the creator could compose with a pencil and paper..

But its unlikely that the creator will be able to produce another identical copy of this work.

IMO, its probably the most illuminating and accurate analogies for the theremin that I have ever seen - thank you.

** As with everything, there do sometimes seem to be exceptions - Amey for example who plays beautiful "non-aleatoric" theremin but (apart from her voice) is not able to play any other instrument - For her, it appears to me that the theremin isnt a joke at all.. But she is the ONLY person I have come across who can REALLY play the theremin well  (in this precision / classical / tuneful way) and do things with it she cannot do on any other instrument except her voice.. Peter can play almost anything well - and im sure that he would be producing music as wonderful as his theremin music even if theremins didnt exist.. as would Gordon using some industrial or synth stuff - particularly if it was difficult to control ;-).

Fred

"beauty is in the eye of the beholder" - To me there is nothing beautiful in that sketch of Mona-Lisa - all it has IMO is novelty and technical skill devoid of imagination - the human acting as a machine interface between an image and a low quality output device.

I guess we could say the same thing about the theremin and its player? (and I mean players in general, not one person in particular)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 Fred wrote: "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" - To me there is nothing beautiful in that sketch of Mona-Lisa - all it has IMO is novelty and technical skill devoid of imagination - the human acting as a machine interface between an image and a low quality output device."

"I guess we could say the same thing about the theremin and its player? (and I mean players in general, not one person in particular)" - Amey

Yes, we could (and perhaps should ;-)

Because, at the end of the day, it all comes down to the "eye" or the "ear" of the beholder - so the stuff I find "mediocre" may be beautiful and inspiring to someone else, and stuff I like may be hated by everyone else -

But if we behaved with that knowledge in our mind, well - there wouldnt be nearly as much discussion here, and certainly not nearly as much "argument" !   LOL ;-)

Fred.

 oh - think I see what you'r saying (?) - that all any player + theremin is, is a human acting as a machine interface? .. I would disagree with this - Sure, one can "break us down" to "machines" with a "processor" - but our "processor" is utterly amazing and does things no other "processor" can do - It can be creative, it can improvise, it can feel emotion, it has a sense of "being" - And it could even be the most advanced and complex processor in the universe - we havent yet identified anything superior! ;-)

And IMO, when such a processor has music as its primary operating system ("in its soul") then the human is not an "interface" - It is the creator.

You know, the more I look at the etchasketch Mona Lisa the more I quite like it. OK, the face is a bit odd, but the only real problem is that it's trying to be The Mona Lisa and it just isn't. It's an etchasketch of the Mona Lisa. An original work would be preferable, one suited to the medium, but as with any medium, it still takes an extraordinary artist to make an extraordinary image and to overcome the burden of being an etchasketch, it would have to be an extraordinary image.

I'm sure it's possible, but a google image search on etch-a-sketch art reveals quite a lot of mediocrity. 

So basically the whole etchasketch art scene would be improved if we could convince the amateurs that this is a professionals-only medium, and convince the professionals that it is worthy of their attention.

"So basically the whole etchasketch art scene would be improved if we could convince the amateurs that this is a professionals-only medium, and convince the professionals that it is worthy of their attention." - GordonC

OMG! What an outrageous thought!!

;-)

------- Just looked deeper into etchasketch and there is some facinating stuff on it in Wiki - including this:

"There are a few practicing artists who use the Etch A Sketch to produce professional lineographic work. Most artists make their work permanent by removing the aluminium powder. This is done either by drilling holes in the bottom of the toy or by removing the entire plastic backing. It is then resealed as a semi-permanent, shake-resistant piece of art."