Pitch Recognition - Problems and Solutions?

Let's talk about pitch recognition and ear training as it pertains to the theremin or any instrument for that matter.  I could use some advice on a problem that I have, but it wouldn't hurt to have a current discussion about anything related.

I don't have perfect pitch, but I thought from my years of playing a fretted instrument that I had decent relative pitch recognition. I don't have any musical training, but I would like to hear from those that do or anyone that shares the same problem described below.

Playing the theremin has shown that I tend to play a little sharp on some intervals, and this really gets out of hand when playing without any reference accompaniment. I tend to wander sharp over the length of a piece, and I don't really hear it. Drifting flat never happens.  Even my octave jumps often tend to be a little sharp.

I find this surprising, because it seems that my ear is a lot more sensitive to notes that are slightly sharp compared to slightly flat, and that slightly sharp notes are far more irritating than slightly flat notes.  Even on the theremin it seems that overshooting and settling on the note from above is a lot more grating on the hearing than undershooting and easing upward into the target pitch.  I've noticed that singers do the latter as well.

1)  Does this mean that you have to have nearly perfect interval recognition to play solo and over the length of a song end up in the same key that you started in?
2)  Is drifting sharp a common problem?
3)  Is it a common perception that sharp is more irritating than flat, and if so, why is this?
4) On the theremin, do you find descending jumps more difficult than ascending jumps?
5) If your answer to 4) is yes, do you try to slightly overshoot your descending jumps so that you always correct from below?
6) Am I talking gibberish here ?

I guess in control loop-ese my human PID loop has no "I" or integration control to maintain long-term accuracy. 

1)  Does this mean that you have to have nearly perfect interval recognition to play solo and over the length of a song end up in the same key that you started in?
2)  Is drifting sharp a common problem?
3)  Is it a common perception that sharp is more irritating than flat, and if so, why is this?
4) On the theremin, do you find descending jumps more difficult than ascending jumps?
5) If your answer to 4) is yes, do you try to slightly overshoot your descending jumps so that you always correct from below?
6) Am I talking gibberish here ?

Initially I started noticing when I was playing without a reference tone, I would drift sharp over the course of playing, a glance on the Theremini's pitch display was my visual indication, and how I became aware of it. Then I noticed that the same thing was happening when singing unaccompanied, so it was not so much the theremin, that just made me aware of the tendency.
What helps me is to mentally sing/keep the root tone in my head, and I'm also practicing more with humming or singing while practicing theremin. When singing we tend to sing in pure intervals, not in equally tempered pitch. While singing and playing simultaneously we can listen for the beat frequencies and steer to perfect consonance where the tones melt together and become one without any beating. Hearing the pitch you are about to go to in the inner ear before playing it will also help to land on the right pitch.

I'm also delving a little into Indian classical vocal music, which has all these bends and ways to appraoch a pitch, consciously sliding and aproaching a pitch in which overshooting and underschooting, and vibratos with the aimed pitch as center, top or bottom (meend and gamakas). The practice to keep a basic note or drone-chord going gives a constant reference tone and we can hear how exactly the played tone interacts with that key tone/drone.

In an instruction book/text about piano tuning I read that in the high registers a slightly sharp tone can sound better that spot on or slightly flat, while in the low bass register slightly flat sounds ok and slightly sharp is more generally perceived as irritating.

Jumps that exceed the octave ascending or descending pose a similar challenge, I perceive no difference whether it a jump ti higher or to lower pithes there, the larger the tonal jump, the more challenging it gets.
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"In an instruction book/text about piano tuning I read that in the high registers a slightly sharp tone can sound better that spot on or slightly flat, while in the low bass register slightly flat sounds ok and slightly sharp is more generally perceived as irritating." - Dreadvox

I'll have to pay more attention to this.  My sense is that errors (whether sharp or flat) at high pitch are far more tolerable that at low, even when the errors represent the same percentage of an interval. And then when you get to the extremes at either end absolute pitch becomes harder to identify.  It's almost like pitch sensitivity peaks around some rather low frequency but lessens both above and below that, almost certainly non-linearly.

I know that on a guitar there are all kinds of beats swimming around between two or more strings, and apparently they unconsciously assist with interval recognition.  For example, it's easy to make tuning corrections just by listening for unnatural dissonances of a 6- or 12string strum.  But without any accompaniment a monophonic instrument like the theremin requires some pitch memory or the ability to hear in your head your own pitch in the context of the entire song.

This is a topic that I'm sure every musician has thoughts on but I'm not finding a great deal of discussion about it.  I do appreciate your insights.

You raise a lot of interesting questions; here’s my take on them (FYI, I’m a classically trained bassoonist and I’m on my way to play a performance in NYC at this moment):

1)  Does this mean that you have to have nearly perfect interval recognition to play solo and over the length of a song end up in the same key that you started in?

No. Ear training should help with this.

2)  Is drifting sharp a common problem?

Yes, there is a tendency for a cappella singers to go sharp (I presume the same applies to the theremin as it’s very similar to skills required of sing). I recently saw an excellent video on this and will try to post it later.

3)  Is it a common perception that sharp is more irritating than flat, and if so, why is this?

No. Personally, all out of tune playing (regardless of how the group tunes [A = 440, A= 442, A = 445, etc.] drives me nuts and, on a good day, I only have relative pitch.

HOWEVER, there is a tendency for some to play or sing SLIGHTLY high (sharp) because it makes them sound more brilliant/bright. Pitch has historically risen over the years, especially in orchestras, because the strings (probably subconsciously) tune slightly high for the above reason. You will find reports that the Vienna Philharmonic has tuned as high as A = 448 and the Berlin Philharmonic as high A = 445. Many orchestras now tune to A = 442. When my instrument was built, I had it tuned to A = 442. Just last week, I was having a discussion and we were discussing instruments. When she found out when mine was made (more than 40 years ago), she was surprised because the instrument plays well in tune while similar instruments from the same time tend to play flat (that was true at the time they were made too, which is why I asked for it to be pitched at A = 442).

4) On the theremin, do you find descending jumps more difficult than ascending jumps?

Yes. This is extremely common with instrumentalists and singers. Why? I don’t know but suspect it’s something physiological. The tendency is to overshoot (play flat) on descending intervals. This drives me nuts when I’m practicing.

5) If your answer to 4) is yes, do you try to slightly overshoot your descending jumps so that you always correct from below?

Yes, see above. One thing, however, is that it is EASIER to correct a flat pitch that sharp ones. I tell my own students (bassoon) that if a note is out of tune (and we have MULTIPLE fingers for nearly all notes on the instrument - yeah, that’s bizarre) that it’s much easier to raise the pitch than lower it.

6) Am I talking gibberish here?

Not at all! Anyway, that’s my 2 cents worth.

"In an instruction book/text about piano tuning I read that in the high registers a slightly sharp tone can sound better that spot on or slightly flat, while in the low bass register slightly flat sounds ok and slightly sharp is more generally perceived as irritating."  - Dreadvox

This is stretch tuning, and it's necessary due to dispersive effects produced by the stiffness of the strings.  The low notes have sharp harmonics, so you need to flatten them.  The high notes need to blend with the low note harmonics, so you need to sharpen them.  It's what makes piano tuning such a challenge, you can't just use something like a guitar tuner.  It's also largely what makes a steel string guitar sound so different from a nylon string guitar, the steel string harmonics are sharp (I encountered this when doing waveguide synthesis).

"My sense is that errors (whether sharp or flat) at high pitch are far more tolerable that at low, even when the errors represent the same percentage of an interval.

I’m not sure if this is relevant to your statement but it is more difficult for high-pitched instruments to play in tune, than low-pitched. The reason why is that as pitch lowers, the distance between notes is less. For example, let’s say A = 440. One octave below that is 220 Hz - a difference of 220 Hz. On the other hand, an octave higher than 440 is 880 Hz, a difference of 440 Hz. The number of Hz doubles with each ascending octave. Thus, slight changes in the construction of an instrument (or in how the instrument is played) can result in larger differences in Hz, thus allowing for a lot more variance.

Look up piccolo jokes! LOL!

How do you get two Piccolo players to play in tune?

Depends which one you want to shoot.

"Thus, slight changes in the construction of an instrument (or in how the instrument is played) can result in larger differences in Hz, thus allowing for a lot more variance." - ContraDude

I was taking that into account, that's why I was trying to compare the same "percentage of an interval" at low at high pitches.  I probably should have used "same cent deviation".  It just seems that my ears are somewhat more tolerant to positional errors up around the 5th to 7th octaves and I have to really be on my toes at low pitches.

Your piccolo joke reminds me of the joke that Leo Kottke used to tell at his concerts (probably not his story originally).  Something about trying to get rid of an accordian by leaving out in the open in an unlocked car, and when he got back he found two accordians.

". . . Something about trying to get rid of an accordian by leaving out in the open in an unlocked car, and when he got back he found two accordians.

LOL!! I always hate to admit it but I have a lot of friends who play the vie-OH-lah. LOL! There are a gazzilon viola jokes out there. Getting back to the accordion - 

Q. What’s the definition of an optimist?

A. An accordion player waiting for a gig.

🤪🤪🤪

. . . I tend to wander sharp over the length of a piece, and I don't really hear it.

I found the YouTube video I mentioned early. The guy who made it is a real geek and he tends to speak very fast. On top of it, he really gets into the mathematics of tuning and, again, explains things VERY quickly. Just the same, he demonstrates why pitch tends to drift higher, and why this is particularly true with a cappella choirs.  

“Benedetti’s Puzzle“

This reminds me of the railsback curve, which, as I understand it, reduces the intensity of overlapping inharmonic overtones. Could that be an intuitive process while playing the theremin?