New Solid State Keppinger Design Theremin

Posted: 12/16/2008 7:58:54 PM
hypergolic

From: Richmond Hill, Georgia

Joined: 9/18/2005

http://home.comcast.net/~ka4koe/pitch.DOC

http://home.comcast.net/~ka4koe/vco.DOC

http://home.comcast.net/~ka4koe/vol.doc

Consider these and PLEASE COMMENT. Don't know why the suffixes are what they are, but the upper and lower case on DOC or doc do matter.

Off to bed. I'm sick as a dog.

Philip Neidlinger
Posted: 12/16/2008 8:14:50 PM
Thierry

From: Colmar, France

Joined: 12/31/2007

- Fred, I feel with you! My professional situation is also very sinusoidal, it seems that the last months added a negative DC bias to it...

Let's hope that times will get better and that we may free our brains from trivial existential thoughts in order to rediscover our creativity.

In the meantime we should do our best on a more modest level. I found a first suggestion here... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r3BNoBD7J0)
Posted: 12/16/2008 11:45:04 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

"we should do our best on a more modest level"

LOL! - Thanks Thierry, I needed that! :-)
Posted: 12/17/2008 12:45:32 AM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

"http://home.comcast.net/~ka4koe/pitch.DOC
http://home.comcast.net/~ka4koe/vco.DOC
http://home.comcast.net/~ka4koe/vol.doc
Consider these and PLEASE COMMENT"

As far as I can see, Both the Pitch and Volume oscillators (pitch.DOC and vol.doc) consist of fixed frequency oscillators connected to a tuned 'attenuator' followed by rectifier.. The loading on the antenna causes the AMPLITUDE of the signal fed to the rectifier to vary.. This is an AM system.

I built similar prototypes months ago, and abandoned this approach.. for the reason that ANY induced signal directly imposes itself as modulation on the DC CV output - ( even 50Hz mains hum can be coupled - this surprised me, but one needs to realise that one is sensing, with this method, not a change in frequency due to capacitive coupling, but a change in loading - and this loading is a function of the potential of the entity causing the loading, and if the potential of this entity is changing [at say 50Hz, which a human body certainly does when in proximity to any mains wiring with respect to the reference ground] then some portion of that potential change will appear on the rectified output)

In order to reduce LF induced signal to an acceptable level, a filter with long time constant (>100ms) is required.. This TC means that deliberate rapid change in the output is not possible - one will have a permanent 100ms portamento (or latency on volume response).

The above only deals with the LF problems.. HF problems are far worse.. one has an open AM reciever, waiting to pick up any radiated signal in the vicinity, and turn this into DC to control your pitch and / or volume.. Furthermore, the antenna / oscillator connection point before the diodes opens the possibility of unintentional heterodyning of recieved signals and the oscillator - so one could (are likely to) 'create' LF beat frequencies if there is a source of HF in the vicinity which has a frequency close to that of the oscillator... One could not use this Theremin anywhere near another Theremin!

Then there is the issue of linearity - The BEST linearity one could get from the above is no better than what one gets from present Theremins employing the tuned antenna principle .. but, because the system is essentially AM, it is unlikely to even get that good (the tuned antenna method needs FM to 'average' the response.. this AM systems tuning is likely to be so critical it is unusable, I think)

>> Following comments removed by FredM on 20 Dec 2008.
Posted: 12/17/2008 6:36:17 AM
hypergolic

From: Richmond Hill, Georgia

Joined: 9/18/2005

Good comments! Thanks!

I think I feel better this morning.

Philip
Posted: 12/17/2008 3:43:21 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

Some other observations..
With an AM system there is no need for seperate oscillators - one oscillator with seperate buffers would do the job..
The coupling capacitors are at least 2 orders of magnitude too big.. 100n will couple 50Hz as if one was directly injecting it.. a few hundred pf will reduce coupled LF.
One could probably use a simpler oscillator - even a square wave.. going through a TLO72 at the frequencies involved, one would probably get a reasonable sine wave out anyway!

The problems I encountered were only discovered after I thought it was all working.. Simulation works perfectly, and the modulation effects are easily missed when doing a bench test on a breadboard.. It is really only when one drives a VCO and hears the horrible 50Hz modulation, that alarm bells start to ring.. Then I kicked myself for missing the bloody obvious, and not taking care to evaluate the design fully..

The reason for this sort of oversight probably has a lot to do with using simulation - it is easy to run a simulation using a capacitor as a 'human' model - setting the capacitance to sweep a range of values, and then gloating over the near perfect results.. after this, building an actual circuit, and watching it perform ALMOST identically to the simulation perhaps leads one to miss flaws.. Even without simulation, this process can occur if one sees almost exactly what one expects to see, and if what one expects to see has not accounted for the 'real' world.

I now have a more realistic 'human' model - this is a capacitor in series with a LF AC signal source.. I did this because at first I could not see why induced LF did not affect the thresholds of oscillators operating in the conventional 'FM' mode.. The reason turned out to be simple.. a half cycle displacement is corrected the following half cycle due to the oscillator maintaining its P-P amplitude.. In an AM system, there is no such mechanism.

The AM system does work - but has the problems detailed in my last.. The most noticable being that a lot of integration (filtering) is needed to get rid of induced LF.. One could use a higher order filter to reduce the latency down to perhaps 50ms, but this causes problems with 'ringing'.. The result of which is a damped sinusoid on the CV output every time a rapid change (movement) occurs in the sensing field.

A lesson I am continually forced to re-learn is that Theremins are unlike most other devices.. They LOOK extremely simple, they LOOK like their design is begging for improvement, they inspire INCREDULITY in engineers who look at the 'simple' principles involved, the 'high' prices they sell for, and some foolish engineers like me set off to redesign the Theremin and make a fortune in a few months... And the truly foolish engineers (like me) fall in love with the damn instrument in the process, and a year later, 10 years older, and broke, are still striving for completion of their dream instrument.. [b]because there is, and never was, anything about Theremins which is simple, straightforward logical or free from quark strangeness and charm![/b]

>> Edit 20 Dec 2008 by FredM..
Whilst I do not understand how / why, Mark has assured me that his Theremin does not suffer from any of the problems I saw.
Posted: 12/17/2008 3:44:57 PM
djpb_designs

From: Escondido, CA

Joined: 2/6/2008

Fred: I had the same thoughts when I saw the schematics ... that it would pickup lots of noise as well as the intended frequency.

I think there's less EMI where Mark lives. LOL Bring that circuit down to Los Angeles or some other big city and every AM radio station close to the resonant frequency of the volume and pitch antenna circuits is going to be modulating the DC voltage.

I think the 2 osc. method allows the antenna to be driven enough to block out interference. The local signal is in the range of volts, whereas the signals floating in the air are in the range of microvolts.

Don
Posted: 12/17/2008 5:26:10 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

"I think the 2 osc. method allows the antenna to be driven enough to block out interference. The local signal is in the range of volts, whereas the signals floating in the air are in the range of microvolts."

I think this is certainly true.. but the signals "floating in the air" are often larger than microvolts..

I had a major problem with Epsilon - independently, my antenna board worked well (this board has the oscillators and a multiplexer, and feeds low impedence logic level signals to the MPU).. But the voltage on the antennas was 3V P-P.. When I put the system together with the MPU in the box, radiated signal from the MPU was picked up by the Hi-Z antenna circuits / leads, and screwed things up..

I had taken great care with layout and placement.. but the only way I could fix the problem was by increasing the voltage on the antennas to 12V P-P. Since then I have experimented with high voltage antennas, using neon relaxation oscillators (90V ramp waveform on the antennas!) and this works superbly and is immune to anything one can throw at it (provided one uses an insulated antenna!)

I may yet make a 'tube' Theremin based on this scheme one day.. but it is not ideally suited to my present directions, and the extra cost of the SMPS to generate the required stable 150V is not justified - 12V is almost as good!
Posted: 12/17/2008 7:31:30 PM
djpb_designs

From: Escondido, CA

Joined: 2/6/2008

Quick and dirty HV supply ...

It's not a SMPS, but you can drive the low voltage secondary side of a transformer to create a higher voltage that is isolated from the mains supply.

But if you do ever build a HV SMPS, I would definitely be interested! All the off-the-shelf flyback converter design tools and parts fall way short of creating a HV supply design.

Don
Posted: 12/17/2008 8:06:42 PM
Thierry

From: Colmar, France

Joined: 12/31/2007

Stop, girls, cool down!

This thread is about to become a very academic discussion. OK, I too wouldn't have designed a theremin like this, but:

While some people like me are discussing theoretical theremin design issues and others are filing patents for prototypes which haven't yet been approved by the musical world, Mark did not only start building a real, not virtual theremin, but he decided also to publish his design. This is much more than most of us did.

His design may finally work and comments should be made only when one has had the opportunity to play on it in order to approve or not its sound quality and playability.

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