the LEVNET zone.. Part 1 ;-))

This is for those who love the argument which continues endlessly on LEVNET without any possibility of ever being resolved, and have attempted to hijack another (in my opinion equally unresolvable) thread here (http://www.thereminworld.com/forum.asp?cmd=p&T=4115&F=1&p=2) - In an attempt ( I think) to export this argument to TW..

I will start ;-)

Playing "On key" is not a matter of opinion - it can be measured with a frequency counter, and compared against the reference frequencies, and the degree of error can be determined - even if the observer / listener does not have a problem..

The importance of playing "on key" is a matter of opinion.. Vibrato is deliberate deviation from 'perfection' - And other forms of deviation from close compliance with the 'reference' pitches MAY actually sound more pleasant / musical / interesting to some listeners.. I think some of this is highly subjective and some listeners may hate a performance which others, for the very reasons which made the performance horrible to some, may love it!

It all depends on the music and the listener.. But I would agree if it was said that the ABILITY to play the 'intended' frequency should be there for a player to be regarded as good - regardless of whether this frequency is at a 'standard' musical interval.

Taking this further - Someone who plays and does not hit recognized intervals, BUT is capable of repeating the performance accurately enough that the piece does not change noticeably (or unpleasantly) can be, in my opinion, as 'good' as someone who can play "the swan" perfectly on-key.

If one is ONLY wanting to use the Theremin as a replacement for some other instrument, and play ONLY pieces which depend on intonation for their structure, then I would agree that "correct" intonation was of paramount importance - But in such cases I would question the rationale of using a Theremin.

To me, it is the "ERRORS" in intonation which make the sound of the Theremin more interesting.. It is listening to the subtle correction of pitch, and the freedom of expression this creates, and how this imparts a component to the sound which is exclusive to the player.. If playing was perfect, it would be less interesting - and one would not have any way of differentiating one good player from another.

The fact that the same piece played by 3 different GOOD Thereminists, will still sound ENTIRELY different, is due to "ERRORS" in each of their performances..

Lose the "errors", aquire "perfection" and, in my opinion, one may as well relegate the Theremin to history - because no one will be interested in hearing it!

Who would be mad enough to choose the Theremin if "perfect intonation" was their primary concern?

*YAWN*

Hey, Fred, you're going to love this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nVpcHMcLCU

[i]"Hey, Fred, you're going to love this!"[/i]

You are right! I did! One of the funniest things I have seen in a while! ;-)... This one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlpINIY4s3M&NR=1) is nearly as good ..

I am quite sure that if you wanted to play like that, you couldnt! ;-))

"Who would be mad enough to choose the Theremin if "perfect intonation" was their primary concern?"

Speak of the devil . . .

[i]"Speak of the devil . . . [/i]

Hello David! ;-)

This is really turning into an exciting Levnet party!! LOL!

Surprised Uncle Howie isn't here yet, with some buckets of tar and a few bags of feathers!

(ps .. if you're not David, sorry - you just reminded me of him a bit.. particularly your [i]"great unwashed majority"[/i] ;-)

Anyway - now that the party is starting to rock to a mixture of toned, intoned and untoned tones, I must say goodbye, and leave early.. Its been a great laugh..

Try not to get too drunk - we dont really want the friendly TW neighbourhood to have any kind of unpleasant scene - And if we all took our rubbish and empties back home to Levnet when the party is over, perhaps the good folks here at TW for whom Levnet is "the place that cannot be named" will forgive our outrageous behaviour.

Any person daring to mention Pitch Correctness ([b]PC[/b]) elsewhere in TW will be [b]shot.[/b]

[i]it can be measured with a frequency counter, and compared against the reference frequencies, and the degree of error can be determined[/i]

Careful, Fred, I got my wrist quite correctly slapped for suggesting it might be interesting to analyse a thereminist's performance in such a manner. One has to also consider the musicality of the performance - a qualitative assessment that is difficult to define and impossible to measure with a soulless machine.

I will mention the result of one such error determination. The piece - an improvisation - was in tune to within 5 cents (the reference frequencies were 12TET, A4=440Hz) for about than two thirds the time, and if one includes the use of quarter tones, for about three quarters of the playing time, excluding glisses and considering the centre of the vibrato.

Which surprised me very much, as I was the player. I have no formal musical training, have not played another instrument apart from a few piano lessons as a child, can't sing in tune, did not play to a reference tone or accompaniment and was not trying to play in tune, just making tones that pleased me. (*)

I think this clearly demonstrates the meaninglessness of such an analysis.


(*) I do not play classical music. I dislike pitchy classical theremin enough that I would not be able to stand listening to myself practising. I bought my theremin to make sounds I like, not to torture myself.

You caught me, just as I was sneaking out the door!..

[i]"Careful, Fred, I got my wrist quite correctly slapped for suggesting it might be interesting to analyse a thereminist's performance in such a manner."[/i]

Gordon, I do not give a s**t what the spectrum analyser says about the frequency being played, how close to "perfection" the intonation is, or, for that matter, anything else technical related to a piece of music - If I enjoy listening to the performance, that is all I care about... It is interesting to me technically (and essential when designing / building instruments) and I mentioned it only because, as I see it, [b]perfect pitch[/b] can only create perfectly uninteresting music.. vibrato is an example .. it is deliberate introduction of "error" - unless the music (score) was to specify the vibrato frequency and depth, and players were to copy this exactly, perfect pitch with vibrato is impossible - To be discernable, vibrato must give pitch variation which is detectable, and therefore "out of tune".

I love your compositions and performances - And I love Peter's brilliant performances, And I love Lydia's performances.. And I would probably place the 3 of you as my favorite living Theremin performers.. But the 3 of you are not, in any way, comparable - I have an ear which can tolerate dischord, but I am far more aware of badly intoned music than most people.. But I do find that the Theremin played with errors probably more significant than I would tolerate from say a violin, can sound ok... I do not know why this is - but for me, it is!

Anyway - I am going before someone slaps my wrist.. More importantly, If I dont hurry up, I wont have anything to play at the end of August..

One thing seems clear to me, and I don't need a frequency analyser to confirm it. Here it comes, contentious statement of the day...

The old RCA advertising was right! It is as easy to play the theremin as to whistle.

OK, steady your knee-jerks for a moment and read on.

Have you heard people whistle recently? There's a lot of tuneless whistling out there! Same for singing. More people think they can sing than can sing to a professional standard. And oh boy do they take it personally when the judge on a talent contest tells them so!

It is odd that we value the theremin for its uniquely human qualities of expressiveness, but compare it to a fretless string instrument (typically) when it comes to intonation and pitch stability. I think a closer comparison would be to the singing voice. And I think Lev Sergeyevich Termen understood this when he dubbed his device the termenvox and not the air-violin.

I also note with slight amusement that those who make complain most vociferously about pitchy playing are also the first to condemn the use of Antares autotune and similar technologies for stripping away some essential quality in theremin playing. (And quite rightly so! If you can forgive the vulgarity, they say you can't polish a t*rd. If that is so, how come the pop-charts - the natural home of the autotuner - are full of shiny sh*t?) Apparently we all have a comfort zone when it comes to theremin intonation. And if you want to play in an orchestra, you'd better be playing within the conductor's comfort zone.

Fred asked:

Who would be mad enough to choose the Theremin if "perfect intonation" was their primary concern?

***********************

That's an interesting question.

Everybody has his or her own reason for being attracted to the theremin but the instrument does seem to have an uncanny hold over an impressive number of people.

I concluded many years ago that the theremin attracts people with a poor sense of pitch. For these folks, the theremin really is the easiest of instruments to play, just as RCA said it was back in 1929. They derive an enormous amount of personal satisfaction from playing and, like the two players whose videos have already been mentioned above, they are deadly serious about their work in spite of the fact that others may find it so bad that it's funny.

It is a wonderful thing that these people have an instrument that they enjoy so much. Unfortunately, like contestants in TV talent shows, they sometimes make the mistake of believing that others are going to enjoy their musical offerings as much as they do themselves, so they go public and make themselves instant objects of ridicule.

But what about people who have an average, or perhaps even a better than average sense of pitch? What is it about the theremin that, in spite of the tremendous technical difficulties involved, attracts them and keeps them coming back for more?

Are they sonic masochists?

There are other musical instruments that are far more versatile and easier to play. So why the theremin?

As someone pointed out above (was it Gordon?) Lev Sergeievitch called his instrument the "termenvox" - VOX as in VOICE.

The theremin is an electric soprano and this is what has attracted many of us to the instrument, including myself. There is no other instrument you can play that will emulate the human voice the way a well-played theremin can.

If you love the violin, play the violin. If you love the flute, play the flute. Anyone with the time and patience to acquire the skill can learn to play any of the traditional musical instruments.

But what if you love the soprano voice? No matter how long or how hard he studies, Armen Ra is never going to be able to sing like Maria Callas, and none of the traditional instruments is going to be able to interpret her repertoire with anything approaching her sound, or her exquisite sense of drama.

Great sopranos are born with their instruments. Yes, it takes them years of training and practice to get to the level of concert performance, but if you aren't born with the voice you're outta luck.

ENTER: THE THEREMIN

Playing precision theremin will also take a good deal of training and practice in order to become really good, but it can open up the world of VOI CHE SAPETE and Mozart's QUEEN OF THE NIGHT to all - not just to those extremely rare individuals whom Nature has endowed with a set of heavenly vocal cords.

You may never be Maria Callas, but if the world of the soprano is your thing, the theremin is about as close as you're ever going to get.

That is one reason why some of us have taken up this impossible instrument.