RCA on o-scope- Any images or video out there?

Posted: 7/9/2011 12:37:25 PM
Chobbs

From: Brooklyn,NY

Joined: 12/1/2009

I guess the subject says it all. Anyone know of a video or even still photo of an oscilloscope displaying the waveform of an RCA theremin (or any old "classic" tube theremin even, like Clara's or Lucie's?)
Id like to see it, just for the sake of my own curiosity and to compare it to the wave of my keppinger.

Seems like it would be a good reference to have handy as there is always discussion of what is the "true" theremin sound. Im kinda surprised I found nothing on google. its gotta be out there somewhere, right?
Posted: 7/9/2011 10:11:02 PM
Jeff S

From: N.E. Ohio

Joined: 2/14/2005

I like to use the 'Scope' visualization in Windows Media Player to watch the waveforms in real time. They can be paused as well.

The 'Firestorm' visualization is my "poor man's" spectrum analyzer. It will give you an idea of the harmonic content and intensities.

Here's a few examples of Clara's theremin...

F5 Waveform (http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/anatak/Waveforms/Clara-F5.jpg)

F5 Spectrum (http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/anatak/Waveforms/Clara-F5-spec.jpg)

C5 Waveform (http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/anatak/Waveforms/Clara-C5_2.jpg)

C5 Spectrum (http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/anatak/Waveforms/Clara-C5-spec_2.jpg)

F3 Waveform (http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/anatak/Waveforms/Clara-F3.jpg)

F3 Spectrum (http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/anatak/Waveforms/Clara-F3-spec.jpg)

For contrast, here are some samples from 'The Lost Theremin Album' (a MUCH better recording).

C3 Waveform (http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/anatak/Clara%20-%20Lost%20Album/Kaddish-C3.jpg)

C3 Spectrum (http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/anatak/Clara%20-%20Lost%20Album/Kaddish-C3-spec.jpg)

F2 Waveform (http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/anatak/Clara%20-%20Lost%20Album/Kaddish-F2.jpg)

F2 Spectrum (http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/anatak/Clara%20-%20Lost%20Album/Kaddish-F2-spec.jpg)

It would appear that the at the low end some of the harmonics are stronger than the fundamental. However, we don't know if that is in fact the case or if the sound engineer tweaked the equalization to reduce any "muddyness".
Posted: 7/9/2011 11:13:09 PM
Jeff S

From: N.E. Ohio

Joined: 2/14/2005

As has been discussed before, everyone will have their own idea as to what constitutes the "authentic" theremin sound.

Sound samples of theremins can only be used as a general reference as opposed to an absolute reference. For example, there's going to be slight differences between instruments and possible coloration if the audio is recorded though an amp/speaker combination and microphone. With vintage tube instruments, there will be some variation between instruments, plus who knows what changes have taken place after 80 years of component degredation?
Posted: 7/10/2011 12:28:56 AM
Jeff S

From: N.E. Ohio

Joined: 2/14/2005

Here's some shots of a "bass tuned" Keppinger tube theremin (recorded direct to computer)...

E3 Flat Waveform (http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/anatak/Keppinger%20Bass%20Waveforms/Keppinger-E3Flat.jpg)

E3 Flat Spectrum (http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/anatak/Keppinger%20Bass%20Waveforms/Keppinger-E3Flat-spec.jpg)

F2 Sharp Waveform (http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/anatak/Keppinger%20Bass%20Waveforms/Keppinger-F2Sharp.jpg)

F2 Sharp Spectrum (http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/anatak/Keppinger%20Bass%20Waveforms/Keppinger-F2Sharp-spec.jpg)

C2 Waveform (http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/anatak/Keppinger%20Bass%20Waveforms/Keppinger-C2.jpg)

C2 Spectrum (http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/anatak/Keppinger%20Bass%20Waveforms/Keppinger-C2-spec.jpg)
Posted: 7/10/2011 6:22:40 AM
coalport

From: Canada

Joined: 8/1/2008

There is no "true theremin sound".

All of the theremins that Lev Termen built in the 1920's & 30's had tone controls on them, making available to the player a variety of different sounds which could be changed depending on the piece being played. In his original theremin demonstration concerts and recitals, Lev used all sorts of different tones and FX with his instruments. The custom instrument Lev made for Clara Rockmore had several possible tone settings on it (I think it was about seven???) but Clara only used one of them.

The RCA had no tone controls because adding them to the design would have made the instrument more expensive and RCA wanted to keep costs down. If the theremin had been the marketing success that RCA had hoped it would be in 1930, modifications would have been made to successive generations of instruments. There were already plans to integrate the speaker into the cabinet (as it is in Samuel Hoffman's RCA) and eventually tone controls would have been added. Unfortunately, as we all know, none of this ever came to pass.

The sound of Clara's theremin has, for many people, become the "gold standard" for tone. Ironically, that "sound" has a great deal to do with the way Clara played the instrument. In the hands of other players, it no longer has the distinctive tone that we associate with it when Clara played it herself. In fact, the sound of Clara's theremin today is so different that people tend to think that something has happened to it that changed its tone. The real "flavor" of the instrument was never in the theremin, it was in Clara.

This is a common phenomenon with the musical instruments of great virtuosos. Heifetz dies and leaves his violin to someone who can never make it sound the way it did when Jascha played it. Ditto for Andres Segovia's guitar and Pablo Casals' cello. With acoustic instruments the explanation for this seems obvious because the player is actually creating the sound and then shaping it. With the theremin, the player is only shaping but that is a far, FAR more important process than most people realize.

These days, the big question seems to be, what makes a particular sound a "theremin sound"? Does it have to be produced through the heterodyne process in order to qualify? If so, then the Moog SERIES 91 instruments are not theremins. They are VCO's. For many people, if it sounds like a theremin it IS a theremin. There are many recordings that claim to be theremins, but are actually MIDI keyboard samplers and synthesizers playing vaguely theremin-like spooky SciFi FX.

Maybe the "true theremin sound" is the theremin sound you like best.
Posted: 7/10/2011 11:07:30 AM
Jeff S

From: N.E. Ohio

Joined: 2/14/2005

For contrast, here are a couple of pics from an Enkelaar solid state theremin ("string timbre" recorded direct to computer). Unlike the tube based theremins, the Enkelaar's waveform does not appreciably morph with frequency (it just gets "skinnier" as you go up).

E3 Flat Waveform (http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/anatak/Kees%20Waveform/Enkelaar-E3Flat.jpg)

E3 Flat Spectrum (http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/anatak/Kees%20Waveform/Enkelaar-E3Flat-spec.jpg)
Posted: 7/13/2011 10:40:55 AM
Chobbs

From: Brooklyn,NY

Joined: 12/1/2009

Thanks!... is firestorm a function of Windows media player? and I just carried my old windows pc off to the basement last week. I dont think the MAC version of WMP has been updated in a while and I guess that there is no Itunes visualizer.
Posted: 7/13/2011 10:40:58 AM
Chobbs

From: Brooklyn,NY

Joined: 12/1/2009

Thanks!... is firestorm a function of Windows media player? and I just carried my old windows pc off to the basement last week. I dont think the MAC version of WMP has been updated in a while and I guess that there is no Itunes visualizer.
Posted: 7/13/2011 10:51:34 PM
Jeff S

From: N.E. Ohio

Joined: 2/14/2005

Is there an echo in here? :-)

Yes, Firestorm and Scope are in the Bars and Waves section of visualizations in the Windows Media Player.

The screen shots I'm showing are some of the few spots where (in the case of Clara) only the theremin is playing and the note is held long enough to get a clean "reading". Being a "visualization", it is more often in fluid motion in order to mesmerise you.
Posted: 7/14/2011 2:15:27 AM
Chobbs

From: Brooklyn,NY

Joined: 12/1/2009

It does look cool.

You must be logged in to post a reply. Please log in or register for a new account.