Best sounding Theremin question

Thierry,

On the theremin, I am a rank beginner, not even born yet. But I am a professional singer and musician and am willing to work very hard to learn this. I only mention this because I do have pretty good relative pitch which I think will come in handy for the Theremin. (people tell me I sing in tune) I am thrilled to get started. Unfortunately, Pegna was closed today, so I didn't get it ordered. Arrrgh. Monday.

It IS kind of weird that Pegna doesn't have more professional endorsements (or any). Maybe because it is not the coolest looking instrument around. I am thinking of having a front panel made for concerts when I get to that point. The Pegna sounded the best to me in my beginner price range and maybe eventually I will have one of you build me an RCA style one. I wish the Pegna had a volume antenna that was more in the shape of the MOOG or RCA - the shape of the loop seems more logical to me. Could I switch one in? Reading the various posts about building a theremin, they seemed to be saying that anything would work-- a coat hanger etc.

I'm sure this is going to be an interesting adventure. I wish I could go to Thierry's summer training session. The town looks gawjeous.

Thank you all for your interesting posts and I love the tangents you all go off on. You obviously care deeply for this instrument. So cool. I am so happy to have discovered this group.

"I wonder if adding a small amount of pink noise to the theremin's signal would also greatly improve the results of the TM." - Thierry

It seems entirely rational - One wants more harmonics, and what has more harmonics than noise? ...

I have experimented a lot with formants - it has been one of my primary obsessions - A multi-dimentional volume antenna with X controlling the 1st formant, Y controlling the 2nd, and Z controlling volume - Theoretically (and to a limited extent practically) it is possible to sing 'words' with X/Y movement of the hand.

Adding noise gives a breathier quality to the sound - One can use noise without the theremin's output and produce what sounds a bit like whispering, but (at least with my limited 2 formant experiments) it is not particularly impressive.

Best results I got was using pulse waveforms, or other waveforms which had complex and often non-musical harmonic structures - A bit of HF FM on the audio also worked..

But it will, I think, depend a lot on what the TM actually does to the input signal - On my experiments there was something of a trade-off between the Q of the filters and the 'pleasantness' and realism of the audio coming out - I was getting there, but still had a way to go - I had given up on trying to get good vocal realism (I dont think this is possible with only the first 2 formants) and was concentrating more on gentle formant 'influence'... Too many of the 'wrong' harmonics into the filters and some 'broke through' unless the Q was high - when the Q was high, the filters gave artificial 'coloration' to the sound..

What I hear from the TM turns me a little green - If I could get that sound, AND have control over the vowels in real-time using the X/Y, I think the theremin could really sing! Perhaps its time to throw away my analogue filters and get into DSP's.... But the maths puts me off!

Fred.

It IS kind of weird that Pegna doesn't have more professional endorsements (or any). Maybe because it is not the coolest looking instrument around.

As far as I know, their website is quite recent. I suppose it's just that no professional thereminists have had the chance to buy their theremins yet. Although if I were them, I would have already offered one for free to one or two great thereminists in exchange for videos.

Large instrument manufacturers usually seek the endorsement of professional musicians and provide them, in turn, with free musical instruments. Small manufacturers generally don't do this and the maker more often than not ends up demonstrating his instruments himself. BIG MISTAKE.

The Pegna theremin has been around for several years. I don't know anybody who plays one. They have a video on their website of Italian clarinetist and wind instrument player, Pericle Odierna, performing one of his own compositions "THREE DAUGHTERS" on the "Satie" model theremin. To me, its tone is pleasant but rather dull, muffled and lacking in dynamics. The video is of poor quality and does not appear to be an actual performance. You can tell nothing about the linearity or configuration of the instrument. 

Pegna has (like some other theremin builders) not understood, that building an instrument, putting it on a website with a bad and musically incompetent demo video and expecting people to buy that instrument will not work.

As a theremin builder you will have to work together with one or more professional thereminists already before you start even to develop an instrument and still more during the development and prototyping phase. That will consume a lot of time and money, but it will make sure that your product, be it a completely new instrument, an add-on or a modification, will be not only accepted but expected by the market when it will be ready. 

Guess why I have not (yet) come out with my own new theremin design although I could have done it in the "Pegna way" already several years ago. For the moment, I prefer studying theoretically and practically as much of the existing instruments as I can, traveling through the whole Europe to attend theremin conventions and meet thereminists wherever and whenever I can, and having people like Thorwald Jorgensen, Carolina Eyck, Wilco Botermans, Gordon Charlton and Randy George as guests in my house as often as possible, just in order to get input and feedback. 

This led up to now "only" to the successful launch of two small add-ons, one for the Etherwave Pro and one for the Etherwave Standard/Plus, which are highly and widely appreciated by the theremin community, and to the building of a very individual custom design for Thorwald Jorgensen (which even found favor in the eyes and ears of H. Mossman, an ancient RCA theremin engineer). But I continue collecting "thoughts" and "ideas" and perhaps, but only perhaps, one day these can be assembled and result in something which might be considered as a useful new instrument, approved and recommended by one or more of our "professionals".

Until then, there are still many things which I'll have to learn, and there are still lots of small cigars, many cups of double espresso and many bottles of red wine from the Médoc to be consumed.

Until then, there are still many things which I'll have to learn, and there are still lots of small cigars, many cups of double espresso and many bottles of red wine from the Médoc to be consumed.

Thierry,

Sounds good to me.Have a glass for me. I'll have to pass on the cigar though. Not good for the voice.

I still like the tone (to my ear) of the Pegna even with the bad recording. He was in pretty good tune. What I and my ear really want is the high end Theremin and I cannot afford it. Even a Pro is out of my price range, if you can find one. At least I'll get started... If the thing is a complete mess, I will return it.

After so many years of research I think the electronic side of my journey has been completed with Coalport's disclosure of the Vocal Talk Machine $220 usd. So often I talked about people posting sound samples which are different from the voice samples. This idea was validated by different theremin “sound” samples fed into the TM; each reveals a whole new voice character.

I know, it was the way it was played, that thought is premature and misses the point.

I often kid that the theremin whistle is fine if you like that sound but I always wanted human in a theremin voice, which is what sets the theremin apart. If I wanted a whistle then I would buy a flute!

Though I have a simple tube design with a great voice I am hoping the TM eliminates the need for the tube/valve as it would be simpler to construct and be more portable.  I have students that do not have the need to expose themselves on YouTube because making music for them is just fun. I will make use $$ to find the teacher best suited to help me. I have gotten to know many at TW.

Oh the students are not little kids rather musicians that could kick your ass!

Christopher

Edit: A special thanks to Peter.......

"After so many years of research I think the electronic side of my journey has been completed with Coalport's disclosure of the Talk Box "- Christopher

Aww.. Cmon! The TM doesnt 'close' anything, if anything it will make the requirement for playable (linear) theremins greater, I think.

IMO All of us here are a little bit weird! - We love the sound of the theremin and the challenges it presents - we have our personal preferences about the type of sound we prefer, but in general we like the theremin.. This (I have found, LOL) is not that common amongs our fellow man (and particularly women ;-) - Play a few theremin CDs and your party is likely to go off like a damp squib, play too often at home, and dont be too surprised if divorce papers arrive in the mail.

I strongly suspect that the TM will make a big difference (eventually) to the acceptance of the theremin - Theremin and formant synthesis are absolutely made for each other, and, quite frankly, turn the theremin into a true singing machine (or will when the thereminist has full realtime dynamic control over the formant engine).

I have listened to demo's of the TM used with other instruments, and, whilst some are musical / interesting / enjoyable, none come anywhere close IMO to the vocal realism that Peters theremin performance does.

I think that theremins will become popular as a result of formant synthesis, that there will be many more people wanting to play the theremin, and, as a result, many more who will discover (to their surprise) how difficult the instrument is to play - particularly if they buy a 'cheap' non-linear instrument.

I may be wrong - wouldnt be the first time, LOL ;-) - But I think our little 'club' is going to need a bigger clubhouse - TM, at its low price, could be a kind of  'event' similar to what "switched on bach" was to the synthesiser.. Big enough, I fear, that it wont be long before big manufacturers see a worthy market and launch singing theremins, and therebye put all the small theremin manufacturers out of business - just as happened to the synth business in the late 70's early 80's.

What have you done to us, Peter !?  LOL ;-) - Joking aside though, what you did with theremin and TM is astounding, and I do understand Christophers feeling that the holy grail has been found.

Fred.

Sarah - the town is utterly gorgeous. And in the second driest region in France. (LOL! It rained soooo much when I went.)

Extra harmonics - yes, very good point. I'm dragging my etherwave to a tiny little shop packed to the gunnels with effects pedals shortly, specifically to try out a Talking Machine (and also an EHX Freeze, to pander to my taste for drones - I doubt it will be of any interest to classical thereminists, but there you go) so I'll try putting some distortion pedals in the path while I'm there and see what difference they make. 

RS. "it ain't over 'til it's over."

PS. i want a compelling cello sound.