theremins, Vulcans, Ferangi, Linearity,Commercial, Anything really ;-)

"Us lowly mortals have to start somewhere... And usually it is an entry level theremin..." - Amy.

I agree (its obviously true! ;-) And this, in one sentence, sums up the reason why it is of paramount importance that SOMEONE starts producing entry-level priced theremins which are as playable as 'pro' instruments.

IMO, once this occurs, all other theremin manufacturers targeting serious theremin buyers, will be forced to improve playability (the squeek-box market will probably be almost unnaffected, IMO)

Fred.

Fred, I am assuming from the above that you do not feel the Moog Etherwave is as playable as a "pro" instrument. Is this correct? 

If so, why do you feel this way? Do you think the available mods for the Etherwave improve it in any way?

What do you consider a "pro" theremin?

Amey, my reference to people buying really cheap instruments was more or less directed at those who buy gakken type theremin toys and circuit bent gizmos - something you definitely did NOT do. Also, unlike many newcomers to the instrument, you knew exactly where you wanted to go with the theremin when you started, and you're well on your way to getting there.

The best linearity I have come across is to actually play moogs low pass filter with the cv of the ew plus. The mids actually sound warmer and you can get a really smooth low end down to 20hz and the high end is way up there. It feels like the linearity is pretty stable though the whole field. I don't see why they don't make that the entry level theremin. The lpf is 280, and the circuit for the cv can't be that much. Throw it in a box with some aerials (which could be smaller than the ew) and you could have a pseudo theremin for probably 280. (you'd be saving on the machining of the mf pedal housing). Seems doable.

So I just received a pretty beat up RCA 1929er. I want to get her back into shape. She works, but the pitch coil has some threads that have been soldered back together and I need to figure out the proper transformer to use so I can put it through my speakers. Will a Hammond audio transformer work for that? 

I saw in another post you can circumvent the amp inside her via a capacitor befor the final stage. Any of you cats know which onat that is? I can take pictures and post them up you it would help.

"Fred, I am assuming from the above that you do not feel the Moog Etherwave is as playable as a "pro" instrument. Is this correct? " - Coalport.

I went into some detail about my personal inclinations regarding playability in earlier posts on this and preceding thread, and stated that I do not know if my subjective preferences apply to everyone.

Perhaps only a "pro" has the "right" to define a "pro" instrument.

Also, I do not really see the EW's price  as "entry level" - I would like to see a really playable instrument (in a cheap plastic housing) available at  under £200.

If so, why do you feel this way?

 I just found every EW extremely difficult / impossible to play - Right back in the early days when I had my first lessons from Lydia and joined in the howling group sessions - I was able to play the T-Vox with no problem, and the EW-Pro with a little more difficulty, but it was still fine.. But I just could not get on with the EW - I found Gordon's Enkelaar easier to play!

As to "why" - I am nor sure - I think it may well be inconsistancy in the spacing, as in, its not just non-linear, its non-linear at both ends! - the "inverse"  non-linearity at the bass end (as in, notes getting closer as one goes lower) really throws me - it feels completely unnatural, and is not so prevalent I think on instruments like the Tvox Epro or even the Enkelaar.

Do you think the available mods for the Etherwave improve it in any way?

I have not tried a "real" EW with  "the available mods".. the "EW improvement" thread a couple of years ago started to look at bufferring the oscillators, which had the spin-off of decoupling these oscillators - this meant that the oscillators would not synchronise at the bass end (or at least, synchronisation would be greatly reduced) with the result that the compression of note intervals at the bass end would be greatly reduced.

I believe I was somewhat "misdirected" at that time, as someone who is an engineer and far better thereminist than I effectively advised that compression at the bass end was needed for playability - so I deliberately added oscillator coupling to retain this feature when I added the buffers.. Alas, I never trusted myself - To me, buffered oscillators (when I did not add deliberate re-coupling) and the resulting  stretched bass field was far easier to play.

So, If this is what these "available mods" do (buffer the oscillators and therebye decouple them) then I am sure I would find the EW easier to play with the mod fitted.

What do you consider a "pro" theremin?

As I said - I think a "pro" is more qualified to answer that than I. "pro" or whatever, I think that playability is the key - I think it easier to define what I deem a "certainly not pro, and probably crap" theremin - Any theremin with usable playing field of less than 30cm.

I think that a good 'starter' theremin should probably have  3 to 4 octaves (no more!) of optimally spaced intervals over a playing field of about 50cm, with no more than about 20cm of unplayable field (as in, field which is grossly non-linear).. and that the distorted field should be close to the antenna, not at the bass end

I think the above could be extended to "intermediate" or "pro" levels by adding switchable registers, and retaining the playing 'span' at 3  to 4 octaves.

IMO, The above should be the foundation upon which extras are added (waveshape options etc) to taste - as in, semi modular perhaps.

The other important aspect of both a good starter and pro instrument is, IMO, the volume control - Almost all cheap theremins treat this as an unimportant component - I would have a control to allow changing of the position <-> volume response, so one could adjust for anything from "super snappy" to "extremely 'padded'" - (or certainly would have on a Pro instrument - probably have internal user accessible adjustment on a starter theremin) - I also think that both the "maximum volume" and the "silent" distances should be adjustable, so that these can be placed close together for stacato or further apart for more subtle control of dynamics.

But, when it came to declaring an instrument "pro" - I would probably only do this if someone like you or Lydia thought it was "pro" - My personal challenge once was to build a theremin Lydia liked so much that she was willing to swap her Tvox for it! ;-) LOL!

Fred.

In regard to the question about creating a playable affordable entry level theremin, I believe Thierry made a giant leap in that direction with his ESPE01 module for the Etherwave/Etherwave plus.  I know how my Etherwave plus sounded and played before and after I modified it, and I think it both plays and sounds way better after the mod...The module only costs about $100.00 US, so I was able to get a pretty good instrument to learn on for about $650.00 US, factoring in about $50.00 labor to have the module installed.  Even with an affordable instrument, the difficulty factor will probably still discourage a lot of players who aren't as damned hardheaded as I am....

In regard to Neal1929's comment about using the CV outputs of the EW plus, this is something I intend to play with once my playing and financial situation improve somewhat (if they ever do).  I think Moog added the CV outputs to the Etherwave Plus with the hope that we would fix the tone issues of their stock Etherwave by purchasing additional synth modules and using the theremin as a gestural controller only for these modules....For now I am content with the improved tone and playabilty of my instrument which was achieved by merely adding Thierry's module....

"so I was able to get a pretty good instrument to learn on for about $650.00 US" - mollydad

You see, to me, $650 is a long way from what I think people should need to pay for a good playable "learner" instrument. With this sort of price tag, and the hassle factor of having to have the theremin modified, and perhaps the fear that your new instruments warranty is invalidated (not saying it is, and I know that Thierry would be there for anyone whos modified theremin had a problem - but I am thinking here from the perspective of a "newbee") One would need to be either "wealthy"* or extremely keen to get into theremins..

*wealthy is IMO an ill chosen word, but I am thinking about when I was young and wanted a synth - I simply could not afford one, so was forced to build my own and therebye got into electronics.

And there are children who I believe could be tomorrows great thereminists if they start with a good quality instrument now - There was one young lad of about 10 who dragged his parents back to the show 3 times in a week, because he desperately wanted to play the theremin - His parents asked me about obtaining a good starter theremin, and balked at the prices, so I was forced to 'recommend' a Jaycar kit.

To me, £250 for a good starter theremin needs to be the maximum target price, but <£200 would be a price which many more people would be happy to "lose" if they found the instrument was not for them, and I think a good playable theremin at under £200 MIGHT just sell in quantities which would be substantial enough (and bring in enough money) to keep my Ferengi overlord at bay.

Fred.

"You see, to me, $650 is a long way from what I think people should need to pay for a good playable "learner" instrument. With this sort of price tag, and the hassle factor of having to have the theremin modified, and perhaps the fear that your new instruments warranty is invalidated (not saying it is, and I know that Thierry would be there for anyone whos modified theremin had a problem - but I am thinking here from the perspective of a "newbee")"

I see your point about the hassle factor, plus invalidating the warranty...I was willing to deal with/accept these issues, I guess, because I WAS extremely keen to get into theremin playing.  I kind of agree with coalport (and Clara Rockmore) that theremin should only be taken up once one has a good foundation as a musician already, since ear/hand coordination is of paramount importance in playing well. The ear training that is necessary can more easily be accomplished in children by starting them on more conventional instruments....  The $650 price tag isn't even what one would pay for most student band instruments, so it didn't see that high to me.  That being said, I am currently paying a whole lot of medical bills (even after insurance), so I wouldn't be able to spend even that much at this time....

In regard to your Ferengi overlord, you may have to just suck it up and find a way to provide oo-max by some other means in order to appease her....Good luck with that!.....I feel your pain....been there, done that....

I should just say that I have never played a Burns theremin - These instruments do come in at <£200, so perhaps (?) an adequate "starter" theremin is available.

I must admit though that I somewhat doubt this - I have seen videos of some 'pro' thereminist playing this instrument - had these performances been done by less skilled performers, I would have been impressed - But, without exception, every performance I have seen done on the Burns instruments is far inferior to performances I have seen done by the same players on the EW or other theremins..

To me, if a seasoned thereminist who does not play many 'bum' notes usually, plays a lot more 'bum' notes on a particular theremin - well, its leads me to think that the instrument could be more difficult to play and could be less than ideal for a beginner... Not a particularly foolproof test, I admit - but just my gut feeling.

Also, I think having a fixed tone (even if a pleasant one) on a theremin may be too much in the way of cost cutting - I would go for saving money by having a cheap ABS (plastic) box, rather than by removing all possibility for altering the tone - But this may just be me - My biggest battle is reducing the number of controls I long to fit.. Yeah - I love knobs! ;-)

Fred.

"The best linearity I have come across is to actually play moogs low pass filter with the cv of the ew plus. The mids actually sound warmer and you can get a really smooth low end down to 20hz and the high end is way up there. It feels like the linearity is pretty stable though the whole field. I don't see why they don't make that the entry level theremin. The lpf is 280, and the circuit for the cv can't be that much. Throw it in a box with some aerials (which could be smaller than the ew) and you could have a pseudo theremin for probably 280. (you'd be saving on the machining of the mf pedal housing). Seems doable." - Neal

The CV is generated from the audio, so everything in the EW is still required - One could strip out almost nothing.. There is one IC which processes the volume signal and provides the VCA - The most one could perhaps save by eliminating the EW's voice would be a few passive components and the tone controls - less than $4 in components, I would estimate.

I suspect that the reason for the "improved linearity" may be because you are playing in the higher registers (100Hz upward) - you are (because of the 'wonders' of voltage control) able to tune your VCF down/up to whatever pitch you want, and exploit the most linear section of the EW pitch field this way.

Voltage control certainly has many advantages - You can do register switching simply by adding 1V to increase pitch by 1 octave (or add / subtract however many octaves you wish), and you could (by amplifying or attenuating the CV) set as many or few octaves in the linear zone of the field as you want (the CV will not track the theremins audio output frequency if you do this, so it becomes unmusical / unusable - but if you dont use it anyway, no problem.)

Yes, VC is certainly an extremely atractive option for building theremins - But it is not cheaper than heterodyning, because you still need heterodyning! - You need a good theremin front-end (the difficult and expensive bit of the theremin) and you need a not-cheap pitch to voltage converter (complete with log converter which is a pain in the RS, because one needs to compensate for temperature, requiring either an expensive "oven" or an expensive tempco resistor) - and then you need your VCO and/or VCF which require temperature compensated exponential converters.

Great idea - but no cigar! ;-)

Fred.

The VC based theremin was persued by me extensively before I "fell over" and was to be the basis of my high-end theremins - I developed both the CV outputting controller front-end "master", and voltage controlled heterodyning (all analogue) theremin "slaves" which were to be controlled by the "master" - This way, one could, for example, have a EW theremin 'clone' module, and/or a module emulating the 201 (I have a 201+ prototype module, giving quint, tierce, octave and deciem and controls to mix these to taste), and/or a standard CV synth with VCO+VCF, etc... But this was never going to be low cost starter stuff - for that I had mixed-signal heterodyning which clocks in at about 1/3rd the price of CV.

LOL - I was intending to demonstrate the above, and my 3d volume/filter antenna at HO2011 - its no wonder I fell over! ;-)

To be honest, I probably need to pull myself away from TW a bit.. The more I talk about theremins the more frustrated I get that I am in "hands off" (LOL) mode right now - frustration doesnt do anything good for my health!

Hmm Fred.. you talk and talk about entry level theremins, would have the skills to do that, and just after the envisaged instrument is being defined theoretically - it again becomes that complicated features overloaded one, likely never to become real. Yes, solving riddles just by thoughts is a welcome way to satisfy intellect. But you also were talking about earning money with this machine. E.g. via ebay regularly a model is being offered, regularly being bought and unfortunately regularly just a "theremin" for FX..

Sorry for that. Don´t get me wrong: all the best.