The Theremincello

Is the concept of an electronic cello viable?

It was certainly an unusual and novel piece of electronic gadgetry back in 1931 when the late Leonid Bolotine was playing his theremincello on the stage of Radio City Music Hall but what advantages does the theremincello offer us today when we already have a vast array of widely available, relatively inexpensive ribbon control alternatives?

No less than TWO electronic cello devices are about to make their debut - Augusto Triani's theremincello, and David Levi's magnetic cello.

Last week, I received an update from engineering student, David "magnetovore" Levi, concerning his magnetic cello. He has been working hard on refining his instrument over the last year and is about ready to go into production (something he had planned to do months ago but the instrument wasn't ready). 

http://www.gizmag.com/david-levi-magnetic-cello/22265/

Here again, we must ask ourselves, is this instrument really destined to be a valuable tool in the arsenal of the creative musician, or does it belong to the wonderful world of curiosities and toys?

An electronic instrument, in order to be creatively and commercially successful, must do at least ONE of two things: either it must provide musicians with entirely new sounds, or it must offer them new and simpler ways to make old sounds. (I am speaking here of actual instruments, not trigger devices such as the "laser harp" that are designed for show).

Are any of the new electronic cellos offering us new sounds? From what I have heard, the answer is no. There is nothing I have heard from any of them that could not be done on a keyboard. 

Are the new electronic cellos easier to play than the acoustic cello? No, they are not. The magnetic cello has an advantage over the theremincello in that it has multiple "strings", but you still need to have acoustic cello skills in order to play it. If you need the same training to play the facsimile, and still the facsimile offers no sonic advantages over the instrument it is supposedly emulating, then what does it offer the musician? 

The one instrument that does offer something genuinely new and different is the Haken "continuum", which allows the player to move in three dimensions (forward & backward, up & down, and left & right) on its neoprene interface. Unfortunately, the high price of the instrument has put it beyond the reach of most people. The continuum has hundreds of moving parts in it and is highly "labor intensive" for its manufacturer. 

I hope all this doesn't sound like I'm trying to rain on everybody's electronic cello parade. I'm not! But I think a little reality check is probably a good thing from time to time. 

"I hope all this doesn't sound like I'm trying to rain on everybody's electronic cello parade. I'm not! But I think a little reality check is probably a good thing from time to time." - Coalport

There would probably be just one question asked by a Ferengi.. "Will it sell, and will it makw a profit".

In terms of effort vs money, the answer is almost certainly no.

But - for those developing the instruments, they would probably be happier earning next to nothing doing what they love, than earning piles doing something they hate - so it makes sense for them..

And the few purchasers will probably be able to use the instrument even if it doesnt do anything more than a conventional instrument, and if they are happy...

"a little reality check " probably only applies if there is some "reality", LOL.. If we create our own "reality" then anything probably goes..

But I personally agree with everything you say - For me, these instruments look like a complete and pointless waste of effort.

Fred.

"Here again, we must ask ourselves, is this instrument really destined to be a valuable tool in the arsenal of the creative musician, or does it belong to the wonderful world of curiosities and toys?"  - coalport

I'm loathe to criticize anyone sincerely trying to do anything new but I'd put this in the curiosity category.  The rich sound, playing responsiveness, and complex interaction of real strings is hard to beat.  IMO the only thing this invention has going for it is possible linearity of the fingerboard pitch response.  Can you bow two strings at once like you can on a real cello?  Can you pluck the virtual strings with your fingers to get pizzicato?  I also don't think the "bowing" is very realistic sounding - when the handheld magnet thing is farther away the volume drops, something real cellos don't have issues with.  That effect was fatiguing me after only a minute or so of exposure to the video.

Just because one thinks of something newish and can implement it doesn't mean it's a good idea.  Inventing / engineering can be something of an ego trap - one has to bring something new to the table that makes sense and gets everyone excited about the new possibilities of expression.

Fred, I think we all agree there is no $$$ in the manufacture of theremincellos. My question was not so much whether the instrument would be profitable, but whether it would be useful.

If I may quote myself, "Is this instrument really destined to be a valuable tool in the arsenal of the creative musician?" So far, from everything I have seen and heard from the new generation of electronic cellos, it is not.

Engineers, designers and inventors of musical instruments must "follow their bliss" like other creative people, but what they sometimes forget is that they are making something that they themselves will not, and often cannot, use. We have only to look at the recent history of the theremin to see the bad ideas and innovations that builders have come up with because they have failed to consult the artists on whom the success or failure of their creations ultimately depend. 

Rather than consulting skilled virtuosos at the crucial stage of development and adapting the tool to the artist, they unveil a 'fait accompli' and expect the artists to adapt to the tool. 

Is a theremincello a cello? No. No more than it's a theremin. It's user interface bears some similarities to a cello, and it heterodynes like a theremin, but it is its own instrument.

Is it novel? No. The idea is about the same age as the theremin. Nothing wrong with that, as far as I can see. Does it have a novel sound? No. From what I have heard - very little - it has a good set of sounds.

Will it be useful? I don't know. But it has a good sound, to my ears, and something similar to the user interface has precedent as being perfectly useable. Will it lend itself to expressive, high standard playing? I don't know. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Will it make a welcome change from people standing behind keyboards and twiddling knobs, or worse still, people sitting behind computers? Hell, yes!

Am I keen to see my uncertainties resolved? Again I say Hell, yes!

Do I hope it works out well? Thrice I tell you, Hell, yes!

"Will it make a welcome change from people standing behind keyboards and twiddling knobs, or worse still, people sitting behind computers? Hell, yes!"  - GordonC

We don't see enough radically different controllers - there should be a flood of them by this point but the large manufacturers mainly give us keys and some knobs.

ok -

I have only encountered the  theremincello once in my life, and was utterly unimpressed by it in every way - nothing about it - its tone, its playability (but I am not a cellist so my comment on this is worthless) were, to me, utterly useless / horrible.

From this limited exposure, my gut answer to ""Is this instrument really destined to be a valuable tool in the arsenal of the creative musician?"" is an unequivocal NO!

The musical drainpipe of the '70s has a far better chance of becoming a "valuable tool in the arsenal of the creative musician" IMO.. And it probably has no chance.. Which is a shame.. ;-)

I think Dewster's " Can you bow two strings at once like you can on a real cello?  Can you pluck the virtual strings with your fingers to get pizzicato?" sums up the possible questions / limitations well -

If we are devising new controllers for electronic instruments, perhaps the idea of replicating existing acoustic instrument "interfaces" is often a folly - these acoustic instruments were crafted to exploit what was available from their "mode of operation"..

The electronic instrument may have features which the acoustic interface cannot exploit, and likewise, the acoustic instrument / interface may have "features" the electronics cannot exploit.

Fred.

(my encounter with the theremincello brings some bad memories - After playing one at HO2010, I went to move my car from the parking bay to a space reserved for me.. In the process I reversed my monster Mitshubishi Delica into a small vehicle parked behind me, crushing the poor thing.. I left my details and got called later by that vehicles owner - It was the Theremin Cellist who had kindly let me play with his instrument and spent a lot of time with me.. )

"Rather than consulting skilled virtuosos at the crucial stage of development and adapting the tool to the artist, they unveil a 'fait accompli' and expect the artists to adapt to the tool." - Coalport

I think the above may be "truer" if we are talking about a musical instrumenf which already exists, but is being "adapted" or "modified" or "electronicated (?)" .. In these cases, there will be "skilled virtuosos" who can be consulted..

But in the case of completely new instruments for which there is no obvious 'precursor' and there are certainly no "skilled virtuosos" then I think the engineer MAY (because of their ability to imagine and visualise the operation) be better placed to at least get the initial instrument "up and running" without any "virtuoso" input -

Imagine for example that I had a pad one sat on, this pad senced the angular forces applied by the person sitting on it - by shifting my centre of gravity forwards, backwards, left and right I had control over two axis.. on one hand I have a capacitive sensor, by moving this hand towards any part of my body, or the other hand, or another person or object, or by clapping for example, I get another output signal.. I can combine these signals to control pitch and volume and (say) harmonics..

Who would I consult with about this crazy idea? Where would I find a virtuoso wobbler? (perhaps some night club ? ... Could I afford their "consultation fee" and possible complications of such a "consultation" ?  - and what are my chances of finding a "wobbler" who had a perfect or even a good sense of pitch ?  ;-)

Fred.

(just in case of any misunderstanding - the idea above was first thought of while writing this posting, just trying to come up with something I had not seen done before.. It is NOT something I have been working on! - I am NOT THAT CRAZY !!! ;-)

Added.. But, the more I think about it, it could be a fun project....... ;-) .. Build the sensor into a small lap blanket...

I allow to throw in my two cents since I have been asked by Augusto Triani to develop a Theremincello circuit:

When I decided to work on this project, it was neither about creating something new (since the instrument existed already for more than 80 years), nor about making money.

I see it rather as a step in my own efforts to gain more and more insight into early electronic music instruments, in the same way as an apprentice luthier would first learn to fix, then copy older instruments before improving them or creating new ones on his own.

All the time and materials which I invested will never pay back in dollars, yen or euros, but I will have learned something new (as I do when fixing broken theremins of all kinds) which cannot be valued in money but in intellectual satisfaction.

When there will be only a hand full of people who will be pleased with a Theremincello whose innards have been created by me, it will be also a satisfying situation for me. I feel that the Theremincello has never been fully explored since it was born and I hope that one day there will be a musician who can help this instrument to find its place in the big circus.

It's not always about $$$. I'm definitively not a Ferengi...

N.B. : My Theremincello circuit has a little novelty: a pizzicato function. There is a push button which mutes the instrument when pressed and triggers a sound when released. You can hear it here : http://snd.sc/Z286Vc

"It's not always about $$$. I'm definitively not a Ferengi..." - Thierry

LOL, ;-) Dear Thierry, the mere fact that you are in any way involved with theremins is almost absolute proof that you are not a Ferengi ! ;-)

To me, you are in the main group that most of us who develop strange instruments fall into..

"But - for those developing the instruments, they would probably be happier earning next to nothing doing what they love, than earning piles doing something they hate - so it makes sense for them..And the few purchasers will probably be able to use the instrument even if it doesnt do anything more than a conventional instrument, and if they are happy..."

None of this, to me, means that what we do is "worth doing" in any real sense - but its certainly more worth doing than designing something which self-destructs and takes innocent lives with it.

Best regards, and I hope your project goes well!

Fred.

ps - I think the envelope on your sound samples is lovely - will the decay be adjustable? Also, just an aside (I know this is a prototype) - I am sure you have noticed a severe secondary ghost tone.

Whatever - These sounds bode well, IMO, for the project.. even the ghost tone is quite pleasant! ;-)