The Theremincello

Freddy's right.

I believe Lev Termen invented the theremincello simply because he COULD and because it was novel and fun. 

Theremincellist Leonid Bolotine was my lute teacher back in the mid 1960's and he gave lessons out of a small studio in the back of his apartment in the west 50's (seems to me it was 55th Street but it was quite a long time ago). One day I was looking at the many photos he had on the studio wall and I noticed something odd...I don't know what it was exactly, but it was some kind of electronic instrument I was not familiar with.

I asked him about it and he said, "That was the 1930's. We were all crazy back in those days!" 

Like Clara, he had been a student of the great Russian violinist, Leopold Auer. Bolotine died in 1988 at the age of 87.

"Freddy's right." - Coalport.

Thanks for your vote of confidence, Peter ;-) LOL.. I think that I am probably right in saying we will never know..

But I certainly would not claim that he did it just because he could, or did it just for fun.. These are possible reasons -  I think there are a multitude of possible interacting reasons, some we may accurately guess at, and some we may not even be able to imagine..

Unless someone finds somewhere Lev actually recorded his thoughts and reasons it will all, always, be speculation .. no one can say "Freds right" or "Thierrys right" on this matter with any more authority than anyone else.. To me, the theremincello is such a daft instrument that I think the "reason" for its creation is likely to be quite facile.. But I might be missing something..

If I had a chance to ask Lev ten questions,  "why did you build the theremincello" would not be one of the questions, thats for sure! ;-)

And I am not actually sure that he would be able to give a rational honest answer if asked that question.. He may well just shrug and say "That was the 1930's. We were all crazy back in those days!" and gawp in utter disbelief if told that in the 21st century, engineers were still occassionally building them!

Fred.

I see that MAGNETOVORE (aka David Levi) has now perfected his magnetic cello and is prepared to put it onto the market. The question will now be: are there enough people willing to shell out the $3000.00 it costs to buy one of these instruments.

To play the magnetic cello, one really needs to be a cellist, since that is the only "transferrable skill" that would be useful, so he may find that the target market is limited.

David has created a wonderful thing, and he deserves to be applauded for his efforts. I'm sure we all wish him well in his efforts to market his invention but a tough road lies ahead and I fear he will have a lot of slogging to do!

A picture paints a thousand words, so does a sound byte!  Visit magnetovore.com

I have no idea about playing a Cello .. But one thing did strike me as interesting.. At about 4:20 David refers to the form factor, and how the neck narrows to enable the player to (effectively) determine hand position (pitch?).

I am not, in any way, interested in designing or producing any cello or similar instrument, but I have several ribbon controller designs (and some POC prototypes)..

I am interested to know whether musicians would really find a tapered "neck" an advantage - Does one really get useful "cues" from this form factor? - Or would you find it just as easy to play if it was a tube of say 25mm to 50mm (or any other specified) diameter which was constant over the whole length?

I suppose I wonder whether the cello neck form factor has more to do with mechanics / strength / acoustics than that it was crafted thus to give sensory feedback of hand position, and whether replacating this form factor is really needed or really confers any advantage for an electronic instrument which does not need to support string tension.

Fred.

"I suppose I wonder whether the cello neck form factor has more to do with mechanics / strength / acoustics than that it was crafted thus to give sensory feedback of hand position, and whether replacating this form factor is really needed or really confers any advantage for an electronic instrument which does not need to support string tension."  - FredM

I think it's mainly to get the strings close together and so supposedly easier to finger on the nut end, and splayed and so easier to bow at the bridge end.  It probably gives rough positional feedback, but the taper strikes me a more a net negative than a net positive.  Same with the 12th root of 2 note spacing on the fingerboard, give me linear or give me death.

You might consider a fairly thin (as in front to back) neck without a full radius on the back but just radiused corners.  Classical guitarists (not a cello I know) almost always position their thumb squarely on the back of the neck, making the full radius moot.

Thanks Dewster -

I suspect you are probably right on all points above - These are my gut "engineering"  feelings - But when it comes to musical instruments and particularly musicians, I dont trust my gut feelings and prefer to ask questions.

I have used "D" shaped "tube" (actually a hard plastic trunking for cables) years ago (- when I say years I am talking somewhere between 1974 and 1984 ;-) and this was liked - but back then I was using resistive track - I am now using capacitive sensing so one doesnt even need to touch the sensor.

My hands just dont work with fretboards of any kind - I find them all uncomfortable and unplayable.. I think my optimum "stick" is probably a circular pipe I can just get my hand fully arround, or a bit thinner.

" give me linear or give me death." - LOL ;-) I wouldnt carry it that far! ;-)

With my "sensor" building anything other than linear would be a real pain - I get linear capacitance change across a pair of differential sensors which are cut at an angle - I can draw a straight line down some conductive tape, cut this with scissors, and have my sensor - To make it non-linear would involve shaping both strips.. Also, if shaped, the coverage (number of octaves) would be fixed - with linear, I get a linear voltage output which can be scaled however needed, and fed into 1V/Octave synths (and antenna-less theremins, LOL ;-)

You may have gleaned that I have lost (or am rapidly losing) my interest in the (IMO) absurd theremin interface.. I think the needless difficulty in playing the theremin is probably testimony to its sillyness* - Its only "advantage" that I can see is its novelty and the visual appeal of it being played, but for those who dont intend to perform publicly and want it just for playing music, I see the effort required to master it as out-of-balance to possible reward.

I believe that the theremin sound could be obtained via a much easier player interface.

Perhaps one reason for my change-of-heart is that I cannot play the theremin anymore (not that I ever really could - but I at least hoped to master it eventually) - I find the action of extending my arm brings on heart arrythmias within a few minutes, and wipes me out for hours.. I can happily do many things (including short runs) which should require more energy, without trouble - but playing the theremin is a killer.

Fred

*At the time of its invention, I do not think it was "silly" - The technology to implement any equivalent interface involved either complicated mechanics or other difficulty / complexity.. The theremin was brilliant because of its simplicity, and the way it fully exploited electronics in a way unimagined before.

For 4 years in and ten prototypes it doesn't seem all that advanced.  I wonder why the coil is so honkerin' big?  And why all the magnets in the hand-held controller?  It looks heavy, and I bet it really attracts metal things when you set it down!  I'd aim for a smaller pickup coil and smaller controller magnets.  I'd investigate the use of an AC electromagnet for the controller, you could tune out a lot of environmental noise that way.  The switch on the controller seems like a bit of a hack.  And it appears they had to call in real cellos to do the pizzicato work.

Not trying to discourage anyone from doing new things, just some peanut gallery observations from someone who never manufactured a thing in his life. ;-)

"For 4 years in and ten prototypes it doesn't seem all that advanced.  I wonder why the coil is so honkerin' big?  And why all the magnets in the hand-held controller?....." - Dewster

I chose to keep my thoughts to myself on this matter - Gets tiring being jumped on when one says anything rational here, LOL ;-).. Suffice it to say, I agree with your every word - with some reservations.. Well, one reservation actually.. It is beautifully crafted wood and a nice shiny copper coil.

"I'd investigate the use of an AC electromagnet for the controller"

The technology for a AC driven "bow" is in place, being used for inductive sensors, joysticks, position detection etc.. No need for a huge RX coil - 4 small RX coils,  one small TX coil, Synchronous rectification, about 200kHz and its all there... Yeah - I worked for a company (PML FlightLink Ltd) who had such a product, could sense for about 1 meter, and was cheap - (or at least the components were cheap - about £10 for a 4 sensor assembly - sold as a module for about £200)..

But why have a "bow" at all ? one just wants to detect a bowing action from the hand - a capacitive or even optical sensor could provide that (?) (am I missing something ?)

The real shame is that there are so many people working alone on their musical instrument projects who, because they are alone, get lost in their passion and dreams and end up dissilusioned when nobody buys their instrument or is even interested..

There are those who spend so much time in the design / re-design phase they never get anywhere - And those who are hands-on but never seem to think about what they are doing.. All it would take is a small team of people with different "attributes" and one business minded "sanity checker" and all the (inevitable) frustration could stop - But the fun would also probably stop - at least for those who are only happy if unconstrained.

"Not trying to discourage anyone from doing new things"

David is a young man, he might learn some important lessons about design and electronics etc - I think he stands almost no chance of selling that product for more than a Chapman Stick or the same price as a small Continuum.. Unless he has some wealthy musician friends.. But the project would be enough grounds on its own for me to want to employ him if I was looking at manufacturing classy wooden electronic musical instruments, and needed a technician to oversee production.

The project conveys to me important qualities of craftmanship and focus.. It does not convey any feeling of great "cleverness" or innovation or business sense.

Fred.

"But why have a "bow" at all ? one just wants to detect a bowing action from the hand - a capacitive or even optical sensor could provide that (?) (am I missing something ?)"  - FredM

Oooh, great ideas!  You could use two capacitance sensors, differential mode for bowing, common mode for loudness.  Maybe put the sensors under a plastic or wood cover that has a piezo sensor: the player could touch (tap / rub) the cover to make sound.  (The Theremin is unusual in that step or percussive playing in both axes is absent - both pitch and volume controllers are continuous - which makes it a fairly non-rhythmic instrument and thus somewhat bland IMO.  Speaking as a guitar player, good rhythm is more important than good pitch, and percussion is where 95% of it's at.)  Anyway, the player is already touching the pitch controller, why not require / let them touch the volume controller (like in a real cello)?

I thinks he's just not hep to how easy it might be to do this (that is, once one has spent years studying it!).  That coil & magnet must be putting out enough power to light an LED!  I used to feel bad for Theremin builders tediously winding coils, but they've got nothing on this guy, he must spend weeks winding pounds of hair thin CU onto that thing!  From this I get the feeling his circuit design skills aren't all that well developed (nothing wrong with that, we all have to start somewhere with everything we learn; the birth/death cycle = innocence springs eternal).

"There are those who spend so much time in the design / re-design phase they never get anywhere..."

I resemble that remark. ;-)  Since production is an opportunity to make the same bone headed mistake 100 times in a row, it's hard to tell when you've reached the "good enough" point with a design.  The probability of systematic field failures even after you've done your level best is quite daunting.  That, and it's way easier to wake up and paw some code while drinking piping hot coffee than it is to hit the cold garage and actually build stuff!

Though I agree with you in that it's unusual to find a happy medium when it comes to developers.  People tend to be either thinkers or doers, and the jack of all trades is often spread too thin.  The large group design process turns me off, but one-on-one with another developer or two with divergent skill sets has often been super rewarding.