Is a LOOP essential ?

Posted: 4/8/2013 8:47:30 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

"The melodia doesn't have a volume anything... Rob loves it :)" - Amey

Thierry is right - The Melodia does have an in-case plate volume antenna.

And this certainly is another approach - One I have thought about and nearly opted for.. Simply make the main theremin unit a volume "antenna" and have the pitch antenna extending from either side on a arm, much like the E-Pro.. Sockets on both the left and right sides, an arm which attaches using a tough lockable milti-pole socket (Bulgin power connector or the like) and the arm having a up-facing jack socket into which a vertical antenna (with jack plug which can be rotated for directionality) is plugged..

One could have the theremin controls on the top of the theremin unit, this would have an advantage (?) that any adjustments would be made silently (other than through preview) .. The control panel would be the volume antenna..

Or is this too loopy ? Is it (asthetically) better to have an invisible "loop" than a rod?

As the theremin was the volume "antenna", and was directly mounted on the stand, people could rest their hand on it or whatever..

The down side IMO, and the reason why (at present) I discarded this idea, was that the pitch antenna will be less stable.

Fred.

Posted: 4/8/2013 8:48:55 PM
ChrisC

From: Hampshire UK

Joined: 6/14/2012

 Especially on theremins which have a wide pitch field (tVox tour, Etherwave with ESPE01), the (right handed) player tends to position himself rather towards the left when he/she wants to play in the lowest register. A non-loop theremin without other directional technologies for the however formed volume antenna would risk to be muted by the approaching paunch.....

 

Hmmmm. Thierry. Does the ESPE01 comes with an added camera facility? I never spotted it when I fitted your board, but you got my shape spot-on........ blast you!!!!  : )

 

Posted: 4/8/2013 9:24:43 PM
Thierry

From: Colmar, France

Joined: 12/31/2007

ChrisC wrote: "Hmmmm. Thierry. Does the ESPE01 comes with an added camera facility? I never spotted it when I fitted your board, but you got my shape spot-on........ blast you!!!!  : )"

No need for a camera, it is sufficient to observe myself and my few theremin students ... 

I have often uttered here that there is most times nothing new under the sun, observation, intuitition and imagination are my world. If I had not two left hands, I would most probably earn my bread as a cartoonist in the Garry Larson style... ;-)

 

Posted: 4/8/2013 9:25:24 PM
dewster

From: Northern NJ, USA

Joined: 2/17/2012

Behold, the power of the paunch! 

I had to change my avatar after a previous comment by Thierry - "Never trust a guy from which you have only seen the hands and the paunch in his youtube videos."  Hilarious!

Posted: 4/8/2013 9:30:02 PM
Thierry

From: Colmar, France

Joined: 12/31/2007

@FredM: I'm hating a bit myself for that at the moment, but I start appreciating the "no visible loop" idea! If you manage that the (traditional) player can act with the left hand left of the cabinet as if there were a loop but without visible loop (like on the Melodia and the Elysian theremins) I could jump over my shadow and buy one of your instruments...

Posted: 4/8/2013 10:03:15 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

"If you manage that the (traditional) player can act with the left hand left of the cabinet as if there were a loop but without visible loop (like on the Melodia and the Elysian theremins) I could jump over my shadow and buy one of your instruments..." - Thierry

LOL ;-) Thanks Thierry.. The irony is that I had almost discarded that idea! ;-)  .. And sadly, you cannot buy one yet, and there is no promise or certainty anyone will ever be able to.. But I do promise this - If I am not able to make them, I will publish full details so someone else could - And if I die, a few people will get a postumous email from me containing all my "IP" to be made public - Although it will probably take a couple of years to wade through it all, LOL ;-)

Implementing a volume antenna into the control panel is simple..

But the problem of a "top heavy" vertical antenna mounted on a reasonably long horizontal arm, and its stability (or lack thereof) is not so simple.. Perhaps ok for a studio environment (perhaps).. but for any performance situation, for un-even floors, for the kind of vibrations and even the effect of PA loudspeakers etc, I think all sorts of problems are likely.

When I looked seriously at this idea, I thought of having a microphone stand connector on the underside of the the end of the horizontal arm, just below the antenna connection point - this way an additional microphone (or other) stand could be placed under the antenna to make the whole assembly stable ..

But getting rid of the loop, having a rod replacing it, having the pitch antenna on the theremin above the stand, so that this most important antenna was stable - well, it just seemed like the simplest, most elegant, and certainly the most cost-effective solution.

But - If people wont buy it - and that you would even think of buying the original idea.... Hmmm..

Why are people (particularly thereminists and 2bx wives ) so darn awkward !?  ;-)

Fred.

I am still interested in more feedback - but so far, it is clear that people want a loop or an invisible plate, and the idea of a rod antenna sticking out the side hasnt been greeted well..

I am going to continue my present direction to get a fully functional prototype - the electronics will require minor modification for the two possible build variants, so I will include both possibilities on my PCB.. Many thanks for your help on this!

It may be that (if it ever goes to production) both "invisible loop" and "horizontal pole" builds will be needed to cater for different markets.. The "invisible loop" variant will certainly be a bit more expensive.

This is advance information on something which may never be put into production.. I give these details so that I have said all I am going to say, and can point people here if they ask questions.. ;-)

In essence, these are to be "upper mid" theremins - Register switching (4 switchable octaves - 3 on a switch, and a pedal input which will drop an octave from whatever is selected, when the pedal is closed) with controls for "span" (the number of octaves contained within the playing area, adjustable from about 3 to 6 on a potentiometer) and a screwdriver adjustable preset on the control panel to adjust the linearity profile. Volume antenna will have a lower (silence) distance adjustment control, and a seperate "gain" control to set the distance at which maximum volume is obtained (anything from about 5cm from min to max, to about 40cm) and a screwdriver adjustable preset on the control panel to adjust the volume linearity profile.

Then there are the directional antennas, and selectable muting (off, auto, on).

The theremin register switching / mixer / waveshaper (and many other functions including auto muting)  is implemented mainly in one  mixed analogue / digital / MCU IC I have been  developing for, oh, 3 years now - Each time I complete it, some new ideas come, and I change / adapt it to cram these in - I have now used every available resource in the chip, there isnt a single block or bus or pin available for anything else.. So its time to use it! ;-) .. It gives every waveform required for obtaining almost whatever one wants.. Ramp, Triangle, Sine, Square, Pulse with PWM, all voltage controlled and mixable in synchronisation with a voltage proportional to audio frequency..

The problem is the complexity of controlling these signals - one needs a control panel like found on a Moog Modular.. So, although the power is there, these theremins will only use a tiny fraction of that power - Parameters selected carefuly from whats available. Hopefully, perhaps, future variant will accept MIDI controller messages to give access to everything.. perhaps with the ability to store preset configurations / settings.. But I think this will be implemented in a PSoC 3, and will include an additive sampling engine as well.. All depends on how this first one goes in terms of sales etc.

Once I have fully tested the chip in real life, and written the technical documentation and application notes, I plan to sell this chip for OEM's and DIY theremin builders and synth builders (it can be used in a voltage controlled synthesiser) to use.

My plan was to first use this chip for the bipolar (LOL) theremin and keep the cost of the basic unit to no more than the EW+ - A slightly below "Pro" level switching theremin (The oscillators are not, I think, to the same standard as the E-Pro, E-Vox.. The combination of voltage and capacitance for equalization does have slight drift at present - More expensive builds would be ovened and be absolutely stable - But I dont think the extra cost is justified for all but the most demanding theremin user).

Posted: 4/8/2013 10:42:27 PM
RoyP

From: Scotland

Joined: 9/27/2012

Hi folks, I've arrived at this thread late so apologies if I'm saying things that have already been said.

I have what should have been a plate theremin but have configured it so that the pitch has a rod antenna, normal I supose it would be called.

I did try the plate pitch antenna but found it to be wierd to try and play. Ok, I know that the theremin is kind of weird from the word go but ing a pitch rod instead of a plate seemed easier to play.

As for the volume, well I still have it as a plate in the same plane as a rod antenna would be and have no problems with it. I think (although based on absolutely no data) that a volume rod antenna set vertically like the pitch rod would make for a very difficult instrument to play.

From an aesthetic point of view, I don't think a horizontal straight rod volume antenna would pose a problem.

Oh bye the way Thierry, a scroll on the end of a fiddle does serve a technical practical purpose; it allows for stabilisation of the instrument when turning the pegs to tune it.

 

Roy

Posted: 4/8/2013 11:30:02 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

" I think (although based on absolutely no data) that a volume rod antenna set vertically like the pitch rod would make for a very difficult instrument to play" - RoyP

General rule of thumb - The vertical pitch antenna is not badly affected by vertical hand movement, but severely affected by horizontal hand movement - A horizontal volume antenna does not require horizontal hand movement, and is reletively insensitive to horizontal movement, but sensitive to vertical movement..

One does not want the volume hand to influence the pitch, and (less important) one does not want the pitch hand to affect the volume..

So, one needs to have each hand acting on a different axis. Having both antennas vertical means that both hands will, to some extent, cause interaction with both antennas.. As you move your volume hand horizontally nearer or further fton the vertical volume antenna, it will also be moving nearer / further from the pitch antenna, and changing the pitch.

Directional antennas do reduce / eliminate these interactions - One could have a vertical pitch and volume antenna pointing away from each other, and play these without interaction.. but no thanks ;-)

Fred,

Posted: 4/9/2013 10:14:53 AM
RoyP

From: Scotland

Joined: 9/27/2012

Fred, I was thinking form a point of view where there were two antennae, one for pitch, one for volume, both vertical (a la the usual pitch one): they are activated in the same way but do different things...that would do my head in big time! :-)

At least with one horizontal and one vertical then you know pretty much that up-down is loud/quiet and back-forward is low/high.

Probably why I don't play the piano!

Roy

Posted: 4/9/2013 10:57:45 AM
coalport

From: Canada

Joined: 8/1/2008

A plate antenna is fine for volume control but a bad idea for pitch. Yes, some people seem to prefer them but they are not precision players. While a plate volume antenna requires pretty much the same up & down movement of the volume hand as the traditional "loop", a plate pitch antenna forces the thereminist to fight gravity unnecessarily.

 

With a vertical rod, you can balance your arm in a variety of ways and swing it like the pendulum of a metronome. With a plate, you have to play with a downward motion which makes extensions of the hand, fingers and/or knuckles far more difficult. Vibrato is much harder because it must be done with an elevator motion, rather than a seesaw or swing. 

 

The plate antenna is the kind of brilliant idea engineers come up with when they do not consult with experienced musicians who play at the professional level. 

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