2 theremins next to eachother

Posted: 6/6/2013 8:32:32 PM
QuestionMan

Joined: 5/26/2013

Dear forummembers

 

I did not exactly know where to place the topic, so here looked like a good place.

 

i was wondering what would happen if you would,put 2 theremin (pitch- or volumeantennas) next to eachother. Can this harm the theremin? Is it right if I think that it would change the shape of the electric field? 2 circles, but more flat at the side where the theremins are next to eachother?

What do you think?

 

EDIT: I just found this on the internet: http://blog.mixonline.com/briefingroom/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/dorit-chrysler-at-a-polyphonic-theremin.jpg

Posted: 6/6/2013 9:27:42 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

Hi QM..

Dorit was playing in an elaborate (and really well produced) April fools production by Moog.

Conventional theremins dont like being close together - Extremely unlikely to do any damage (except perhaps psychological / musical damage to player / audience) - but even when designed to reduce interactions, it can be extremely difficult to get theremins not to interfere with each other.

Each theremin is (usually) emitting two high frequencies from its antennas, One or both of these frequencies is altering slightly (by up to about 5kHz max) as a result of hand proximity.. Then the frequency is mixed internally with a reference frequency..

If any antenna (particularly the pitch antenna) picks up any frequency that ever becomes within the 'scope' of its reference oscillator to produce audio difference frequencies (as in, within +/- 20kHz) "ghost" tones can be produced..

Having 2 similar theremins operating at similar frequencies is the worst case.. Two different theremins (a EW with a SC, one at about 260kHz one at about 455kHz) and the willingness to adjust the frequencies if you have a problem, is best.

Fred.

Posted: 6/8/2013 1:28:34 AM
bisem

From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Joined: 1/1/2011

I was ticked off by that April Fool's video they put out.  Moog has all the money, time and ambition to produce that elaborate video but they can't put a 99 cent mute switch on the Etherwave or come up with an alternative to the EW Pro that they stopped producing!

Posted: 6/8/2013 10:28:36 AM
coalport

From: Canada

Joined: 8/1/2008

An April Fools joke is a prank that is presumably pulled off, and FINISHED, on the first day of April. It is entirely confined to that particular day. The problem with a prank like Moog Music's April Fools polyphonic theremin video is that once it's posted to the internet (and copied by God knows how many people) it's there forever. It's no longer limited to the context of April 1, and many people continue to believe the multiple-antenna theremin is real. 

 

It was a great "in" joke two years ago for a small community of people who recognized the humor, but for most people today it's misleading and deceptive. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stobfk1Mfjk

Posted: 6/8/2013 6:23:24 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

"I was ticked off by that April Fool's video they put out.  Moog has all the money, time and ambition to produce that elaborate video but they can't put a 99 cent mute switch on the Etherwave or come up with an alternative to the EW Pro that they stopped producing!" - Bisem

"An April Fools joke is a prank that is presumably pulled off, and FINISHED, on the first day of April. It is entirely confined to that particular day." - Coalport

I think the above two comments are related - The reason that Moog chose to produce the elaborate "joke" and spend money on this is (I think) because its one off - There is no additional expense required, no real work involved (updating design files etc) - it was a bit of fun at company expense - and publicity for Moog.. but it is "pulled off, and FINISHED"

 "The problem with a prank like Moog Music's April Fools polyphonic theremin video is that once it's posted to the internet (and copied by God knows how many people) it's there forever. It's no longer limited to the context of April 1, and many people continue to believe the multiple-antenna theremin is real." - Coalport

True - But with the huge number of myths and fallacies out there regarding the theremin, does this little nonsense make any real difference? " for most people today it's misleading and deceptive." - I agree, and would much prefer that bogus "information" was somehow filtered - but it aint going to happen, not for theremins, not even for (IMO much more important) issues like the validity of evolution or the age of this planet.

There are no (and can be no) arbiters of what is "true" and "false" - Those who KNOW cannot "prove" that they "know".. There is no way that someone who is unwilling or unable to investigate claims for themselves can determine, even on something as technically simple as the theremin, when they are being given information based on sound understanding, or whether they are simply being lied to. (or misled by an ignoramus).

If the "Moog Polyphonic" had been presented as a "fact" without being "covered" by April 1, there would have been many who would have believed it - The Moog reputation would be enough (and perhaps is enough that people will believe in this PolyMoog theremin, when its context is forgotten), and anyone contesting the claims would most probably be disregarded, even if they presented sound reasons based on analysis, as to why the claims were bogus..

Anyone thinking about the theremin and simultaneously using their brain, would have seen that the April 1 "performance" was an impossibility - they do not even need to understand the capacitive sensing principles or decode the "IDIOT" mynomics, just watching the movements and "resultant output" gave it away, so those in this "small community" were never at risk of being mislead.. Alas perhaps though, now that the original joke is deleted, there is  a possibility (?) that an undying myth has been created...? How long before "Retired European engineers" are accused of dismissing the Moog claims and causing this wonderful theremin advance to be squashed .. ? !  ;-) 

IMO It is only those who are ignorant enough to attempt to build or buy a Glasgow theremin, or undertake other obviously nonsensical theremin endevours, who could be misled... And IMO, anyone who jumps into theremins and doesnt take the time to read up, investigate, and listen to / watch performances (the state I was when I started, LOL ;-) - well, no-one can save them from themselves! ;-)

Fred.

Just as an aside - There IS a way to have multiple capacitive sensors operating in close proximity, but the principle of operation is quite different to the conventional heterodyning theremin method.. All the sensors must operate synchronously, either at a constant frequency, or sequenced rapidly to allow each ones individual sensed capacitance to be derived.

However, even doing this, a polyphonic implementation like the Moog video is (IMO) not possible - each antenna would produce an output which sensed the capacitance it sees - each would be observing the same "object" from different angles and distances.

With my 3d sensor, I use 4 "antennas" and from this can derive X,Y, and Z data to high resolution - and have a seperate more distant pitch antenna.. It may, with complex digital processing, be possible to derive more complex gestural data from an array of capacitive sensors - but this is beyond me! - I am having enough difficulty getting my 3d sensor to a form that it can be manufactured.

I remember (I think) that "Isosynchronous" was a word used in the Moog video - Interesting - I suspect that many people have explored the idea of theremin polyphony, and that sensor synchronisation is an obvious direction..

But the theremin is a Monophonic instrument - IMO, A polyphonic variant can never be a theremin.. Its like a Mini Moog... You cannot have a polyphonic version - the (IMO most important MiniMoog class of) sound depends on portamento between played notes - as soon as you add multiple portamento paths required for polyphony, you lose the control (it gets taken over by the processor).. And the same would be true for any polyphonic variant of the theremin - only more so.

I have analogue polyphonic synthesisers - some of the poly portamento sounds great - but it aint a Mini Moog or even a Prodigy!

Posted: 6/8/2013 11:20:18 PM
coalport

From: Canada

Joined: 8/1/2008

Fred wrote:  I ... would much prefer that bogus "information" was somehow filtered - but it aint going to happen, not for theremins, not even for (IMO much more important) issues like the validity of evolution or the age of this planet.

 

You're right Fred. It amazes me how many people believe the planet is hundreds of millions of years old when we know for a fact that it is no more than 10,000 years (and possibly as little as 6,000 years). 

Posted: 6/9/2013 1:19:19 PM
QuestionMan

Joined: 5/26/2013

 

You're right Fred. It amazes me how many people believe the planet is hundreds of millions of years old when we know for a fact that it is no more than 10,000 years (and possibly as little as 6,000 years). 

 

Do you mean you dont believe in evolutionairy theory?

I have another question. What would happen if I put the pitch antenna of a theremin through the loop of a volume antenna of another theremin? It is not dangerous to try?

Posted: 6/9/2013 2:14:06 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

"What would happen if I put the pitch antenna of a theremin through the loop of a volume antenna of another theremin? It is not dangerous to try?" - QM

LOL ;-)..

What would happen? - I dont know! ... Would / could it be dangeerous ? .. I have no idea.. Theremin copulation is something rarely seen... All we know is that their evolutionary development has been extremely slow when compared to musical entities where touch is involved..

Fred.

Going Seriously off topic and into the murky waters of reality vs "reality"... Please dont read the following just so you can complain about it to the moderators! - This is about evolution and God and that stuff... I am sick of getting emails from the Mods asking me to change my words because some bible believer finds what I say "offensive" -

If you believe the bible and read what follows, you only have YOURSELF to blame if you feel "offended" !!!

(ps .. in case your question was prompted by any assumed disbelief in evolution on my part, let me make it clear -

I do not "believe" in evolution.. I certainly dont "believe" in ID.

I dont think "planet Earth" has an "age".

In fact, I dont think that you, or I, or earth, or time, or, for that matter, theremins, "actually" exist at all!

But "I" dont "believe" any of the above - I merely suspect this it to be the "underlying" "reality"..

 ;-)

However...

When playing the "reality game" (as it seems one must in order to function in this time/space domain) I obviously "believe" Darwin's theory to be the "truth", or extremely close to the truth - It made many "prophesies" which have come true (unlike the frophesies from the ID crowd) - It effectively predicted that Sol was powered from some source other than combustion before Fusion was discovered, and effectively predicted a mechanism which at that time was unknown - DNA... It stands the test of every new discovery or understanding in biology.

All of which is completely different to the myth of creation on the lines specified in Genesis, which fails at every "reality" check. 

If it comes to a "contest" between evolution or Genesis, there is no contest - The Genesis stories, every one of them, can be seen and calculated and proved to be complete and utter fiction - Right from the creation of earth through creation of animals through "the curse" and Noahs ark and the Tower of Babel - Each can be PROVED to be ignorant human fantasy.

Evolution started on shakey ground - many pieces fitted, but there were problems - the length of time required being the major one... A valid (and almost conclusive) argument against evolution  was that Sol could not have been "burning" for long enough to allow the evolutionary process to happen - life on earth could not have been on earth that long...

Then the discovery of fusion showed that Sol (our sun) and the stars not only "could have" been "burning" for "that long" - but that they MUST have been doing so for FAR longer than the required evolutionary time scales...

IMO, None of the above removes the possibility of "God" from "the equation" though - All it does is shows that our dogmatic adherence to fables scrawled on ancient toilet paper, is idiotic.. If there is any God then He/She/It must be far greater than our feeble imaginations can concoct tales about - and far too big to fit into any dogma or religeon.

If an entity capable of creating this universe had wanted to communicate "instructions" or "truth" to us, it would have been able to do so - it would not have produced works like "the bible" or "the quran" or the "book of moron" - its capabilities far exceed these infantile works which are all obviously devised and constructed and invented from the imaginations of (often "corrupt") humans.

God would have no problem making the "superiority" of any "book" it "wrote" stand out - The science in such a book would not be faulty - The ethics in such a book would not be contradictory.

Posted: 6/9/2013 3:57:08 PM
coalport

From: Canada

Joined: 8/1/2008

Excuse me gentlemen, I don't mean to offend anyone's personal beliefs, but God's Holy Word is very clear on the subject of the earth and its origin. The Rig Veda clearly states that the planet rides on the back of a great elephant, which in turn stands on the back of a cosmic tortoise that swims in the Ocean of Brahma. 

 

I must confess, I also very much like the THEREMIN WORLD logo, which depicts the planet as an enormous theremin floating in space. 

 

As for QM's "evolutionairy" theory, wuzzat? Googled it and came up with lot of gobbledygook in Dutch!

Posted: 6/9/2013 4:14:02 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

" I also very much like the THEREMIN WORLD logo, which depicts the planet as an enormous theremin floating in space."

Is that what the logo is ? .. I saw it as some form of life preserver.. a bouy with a handle on the side a person could cling to, and an antenna which transmits a distress message when the handle is grabbed..

Oh, floating in the sea of Brahma, of course... ;-) (but the sea is not shown - the bouy hasnt been launched yet..)

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