Moog Theremini!

Hell, they did not fix any of the important issues. On the front page, Jason posted the "new and improved" linearity data vs the ancient. Haha! Indeed, it has changed from unplayable to very bad linearity.

One more reason to condemn the whole thing, to despise Moog Music Inc in general and to stop paying any attention to that crap!

The Etherwave Pro, the most recent theremin which they brought to market (the Etherwave Plus does not count since it was just a tarted up version of the 1996 EM/Etherwave design) had already more than 5 linear octaves with an equally adjustable tone spacing from 5 to 7 inch per octave. Each following model should be improved, that would be normal product evolution. But the Theremini is ten huge steps back. And they feel not ashamed to write Bob's name on it :-(

"Since the Theremin isn't a percussive instrument, it can likely have fairly low gestural bandwidth without anyone noticing it during normal play.  2.6Hz is definitely too low.  27Hz might actually be OK, but it's still kind of low IMO.  250Hz might be a good target, as there wouldn't be much (if any) benefit in going above this." - Dewster

In terms of playability, I think what you say above is probably true, and 250Hz would be a good target.

But I do wonder about the tonal effects of limiting the "gestural bandwidth" - As I have said before, I hypothesize that change in the pitch results in change in the actual waveform - and that it is the instant response of analogue heterodyning which may be what gives this method of controlling / generating sound that gives "real" theremins their distinctive sound when played by a master.

With a bandwidth of 250Hz, I suspect that this "tonal control" would only act on pitches below 250Hz (as in, the waveform would not change as a result of vibrato or modulation / rapid movement for pitches above this) and if this was true, one would want the bandwidth to be at least twice the highest frequency one would want to 'distort' as a result of movement - so I would be looking at a minimum bandwidth of perhaps 5kHz (200us)

BUT - I do not think the above would be of much benefit to the vast majority of players..

I also think that the "true theremin sound" is now a lost cause, in much the same way that the "true analogue" sound of synths like the MiniMoog (which I hypothesise gets its distinctive sound from the same kind of mechanism as heterodyning - wave distortion as pitch changes) is a lost cause.. Most people, it seems, dont hear the difference, and cant tell the difference between a "soft synth" playing back samples, and the real thing.

Fred.

"One more reason to condemn the whole thing, to despise Moog Music Inc in general and to stop paying any attention to that crap!" - Thierry

And again, Amen to that!  ;-)

"What some have called "latency" does not seem to be the problem. It is not that the instrument is BEHIND in registering gestures. It is not registering them at all! For the kinds of things I do on the theremin, the THEREMINI is useless. I imagine other experienced precision players will be of the same opinion." - Coalport

I think that in many cases "latency" and "bandwidth" can be the same or similar.. When one integrates a changing signal, the amplitude of this signal is proportional to its frequency. What you are describing / demonstrating cannot be fully explained by "latency" alone - I suspect there is some additional pitch-dependent filtering reducing the bandwidth when the pitch is lower.. Pure guess, but I suspect the filtering is increased (to a level where it eliminates vibrato) in the far field deliberately to overcome the appalling oscillators deficiencies. 

Some diagrams below show the kind of effect one gets from simple 'latency' - these were done feeding sine waves into a simple RC filter having a time constant of 100ms.. You can see how the output pitch lags the input movement, and how the pitch change is proportional to the vibrato speed, getting more attenuated as the vibrato speed is increased.

With a heterodyning theremin, the waveforms would be identical (movement waveform and pitch change waveform would effectively be superimposed on each other, with no delay or latency, and no change in amplitude as the movement frequency changed)

"On the front page, Jason posted the "new and improved" linearity data vs the ancient. Haha! Indeed, it has changed from unplayable to very bad linearity."  - Thierry

Yes.  It seems to have improved but not enough:

Here's a measurement of linearity before the update, with the Theremini tuned to 5 octaves:

• C2 to C3:  approx. 12 inches
• C3 to C4:  3 to 3.5 inches
• C4 to C5:  1.75 to 2 inches
• C5 to C6:  1.5 inch

 After the update, however, you'll see that the octaves are much more evenly spaced out: 

• C2 to C3:  6 inches
• C3 to C4:  4 inches
• C4 to C5:  3 inches
• C5 to C6:  3 inches

- Jason

I think this is the reason that Peter's vibrato doesn't work so well for low notes - the note spacing itself is stretched out on the low end, which requires more hand movement for equivalent vibrato.

I think that in many cases "latency" and "bandwidth" can be the same or similar.  - FredM

I tend to think in digital terms, where delays are characterized as "inertial" or "transport".  Inertial is low pass so it tends to kill harmonics and smear out pulses.  Transport is pure delay so a pulse will retain its shape but the entire thing will arrive late.  I don't know how much transport delay the Theremini has, but the inertial delay is pretty bad (pre firmware update anyway).  I would think precision players would have more trouble accommodating high transport delay as opposed to high inertial delay.

And here's a very interesting observation. I've been doing nothing but playing and testing the Theremini for the past few months. I've basically been immersed in it and have totally put myself into a semi-quantized state of mind. Not totally quantized - but different states of semi-quantization that you can get from this box. Playing in a quantized state also it turns out takes some skill and involves some techniques that may well be training aids for a beginner thereminist.

I have not played the Etherwave in all this time. Just turned it on tonight and I am unbelievably better at being in tune and picking out notes. I can play some Bach that I never had a chance of playing at all before and my expression seems better too (because it is actually harder to play expressively on the Theremini so you adapt in different ways that seem to transfer over well on the theremin - where finer motions can be used). Remember, Moog never said the Theremini responds exactly like a theremin and that is the source of so much of the technical distractions in this post.

So before you all start tossing it in the fire and grilling it like a well done steak, I suggest some of you start doing some research into psyco-acoustics and musical perception because I am convinced playing this thing - especially for a beginner - may well do exactly what Moog says it can do - better train you for playing a real theremin in various ways (but it's not a replacement for a real theremin and Moog doesn't say it is).

Everyone here is totally lost in trying to get it to be a real theremin instead of seeing it for what it is and can be with future upgrades. There just may well be some very good reasons to practice on a Theremini as well as a theremin to improve.

So forget all the response issues and look at the bigger picture. This instrument may well be a great training aid (and its only going to get better as firmware updates come out and Moog continues to enhance it - and hopefully its line of real theremins as well).

There is something about semi-quantization that is very interesting.

In agreement with rkram53, I too, am more comfortable with teaching a student using a Theremini now the 1.1 firmware update is available. I just got my Theremini today. Before the update, it was pretty much like the one the Moog sales rep brought to my studio, but a little better, since mine was built just this month. Then the update made a total transformation of the Theremini from a mere "device" or noise toy, to an actual starter instrument, which is much more stable. Now, the visual preview makes more sense to use as an initial training tool since the linearity is more uniform.

The responsiveness is much improved, as well as linearity. Now, where I notice latency the most is when effects are full on, and or the filtering setting is anything less than fast.

I've yet to be able to connect my ipad to Theremini for lack of the adaptor I need, but next week, I'll have the means of connecting the ipad to Theremini, and begin exploring new sound creation.

I've spent the last 6 hours exploring Theremini, and now have her set up to provide at least 7 octaves, C, to D7 for the moment.

Yes, I too, noticed the volume response is never going to quite be like a real theremin, but already, I'm learning to adapt to the Theremini.

No, I won't be grilling my Theremini, but maybe later on, perhaps I may be moving the internal bits into a nicer cabinet.

mine is built 6.2014.  after the update got display zippers. could get rid of it somehow, asfaics.

in "theremin mode" the pitch-knob works as on a theremin. but the volume-knob not. it does not determine the distance of the max volume position as it should. it changes only the master volume. and that is just bloody stupid.

btw.: the cv stuff is imo solved with that scalable v/oct. (beside no gate or a second cv-out) 

aah, just forgot: it's not intented as a real theremin. thanks rkram53 for pointing that out. your positiveness about it is unbeatable. and i like that. but this thing could have been made better. and you know that.

future upgrades? well, let's hope for the better or keep dreaming. (yes it has some sonic potential.)

sayonara and a happy new year 2 all.

"Remember, Moog never said the Theremini responds exactly like a theremin and that is the source of so much of the technical distractions in this post."  - rkram53

I don't understand "not holding manufacturers to things they never said" - of course we do.  Unless specifically told otherwise, we have reasonable expectations that certain basic features are in the products we purchase.  A new car should be able to do highway speeds; a new toaster oven should be able to make toast; etc.  They do pretty much market it as a Theremin, no?

"So before you all start tossing it in the fire and grilling it like a well done steak..."

It's a mixed bag and (at least pre-firmware update, I can't speak of post) some essential features were quite poorly implemented / missing.  Consumers should be made aware of the good, the bad, and the ugly so that they can make their own informed choices.  Moog Inc. in particular should be made aware of the things consumers dislike or the product will never have a chance of improving.  You seem to be taking any and all negative assessments by actual owners of this product as personal insult and I'm not sure why that is, but it's kind of annoying to have one's helpful motivations so negatively interpreted.  If it works for you, great, but you can't convince me I have lying eyes.

Other people have reported that screen issue, however, I've loaded firmware a zillion times and have never had an issue - using the C6 program under windows. Make sure it is in Theremini mode, Load the erase file, send it, verify erase on the screen, load the firmware, make sure it is highlighted in the C6 window and then send.

However someone using it on the MAC seemed to have to do two separate operations. If you use a MAC, maybe this will solve that screen issue. I've loaded both the WIN and MAC directories and it works fine for me (they are the same file after all).

using mac and the C6, i did the following: started the theremini for the erase procedure as told, and sent the erase file from the 10.4 packet. quit C6. started C6 again and sent the new 1.1 firmware. (i did so just to make sure C6 has only the new fw showing up in the window.) restarted the theremin and calibrated as told.
seems to work.!

"Moog never said the Theremini responds exactly like a theremin" -- rkram53

Actually, they did!

Back at the launch, Moog reps  went out of their way to emphasize that it was a "heterodyning instrument" and effectively had an EW front-end.

Moogs intentional (IMO) dishonesty and misrepresentation of the product was intense - so much so that based on what they said, forums were buzzing with adulation for the amazing instrument with heterodyning voice and CV and MIDI and Animoog and all the other bells and whistles - Even experienced thereminists like PP were led to believe (from the Moog presentations) that it was a true theremin until the fact that these 'presentations' were dishonest was exposed by the likes of me.

Moog demonstrated one thing clearly.. If you tell enough lies and get punters to repeat these lies, then it doesnt matter if later the lies are exposed - because by that time you have obtained the free marketing these lies encouraged, people who repeated these lies are unlikely to believe the truth or admit they were wrong (particularly if they fear that their reputation is on the line), and with enough loyal Moog supporters, those who exposed the lies will be painted as the villains.

And feelings do run high - This TW community has run for many years, and has consisted mostly of people who are REALLY interested in theremins - we have examined every instrument in as much depth as possible, both musically and technically.. To (effectively) be bullied into hiding unwelcome truths about the theremini because Moog was once Bob Moog's company, to be lambasted by ignorant newcomers who have zero real understanding or competence with the theremin, to have request for exemption from criticism and an exclusive thread in which only praise for the "instrument" could be voiced.. Just bloody RUDE IMO!

And to have TW effectively endorsing the "instrument" on its front page and adverts also really pisses me off - TW IMO should be an impartial source of reliable theremin info (particularly the front page and technical resources) .. I do not like what Moog is doing, and what their money is buying. IMO any company willing to lie to its customers and potential customers, and rely on the reputation of their late great guru to pass off this scam - well, IMO such a company deserves to be boycotted.

Fred.

 "you've got a traditional heterodyning oscillator playing the pitch" - 00.18 ... This is DISHONEST!

 And then this.