Moog Music Theremini Reviews

"But it looks like they've thrown all the R+D done by Bob into the bin, re-engineered the front-end to the lowest evolutionary state, and handed the audio engine to software engineers."  - FredM

"Which you honestly could do if you kept an eye on resolution.  Even direct conversion has enough resolution if you handle it right.  I have a feeling they didn't go for maximum LC sensitivity, are perhaps are heterodyning down to base band, aren't sampling enough, or are running into numerical issues in the code.  I'd love to crack one open and probe it a bit." - Dewster

I agree that one could probably pull-off a good quality digital theremin "if you kept an eye on resolution" and that Moog probably could have made a "Theremini" which was more a theremin and and less a toy.. But I think that to do so, they would have needed to invest far more work / expense into its development, and would have needed to consult thereminists and been willing to redesign / re-engineer based on feedback from real thereminists and musicians using theremins.

I fully understand why they didn't do this - Its effort / expense that isn't justified for the potential market, even taking a "best case" projection - They went a route that makes much better commercial sense - I think  Gordon is right when he says "I am increasingly of the opinion that Moog designed the theremini with their primary customer base - synthesiser players - in mind, not classical thereminists."

The thing is though that Moog doesn't need to invest in extensive R+D to produce a theremin which makes most of us here on TW happy - They can do it with the analogue technology Bob developed ..

I spent yesterday at a music event in Southampton - (ended up doing the mixing for the primary band - was the realization of a dream - I have followed this band since the 80's!)  - Chatting to musicians and DJ's, quite a few were interested in theremins (one guitarist had an Elsian theremin with him he brought for the open session, but wasn't able to use it because bands played longer and the session was cancelled)

It was DJ's who were interested in the Theremini - Because the host of the event is a friend, I was introduced as "the theremin man" LOL - So got quite a few inquiries about theremins, it was the DJ's who knew about the theremini and were interested - These DJ's dont "just" play pre-recorded music, they are musicians in their own right - one had a full drum kit and was an exceptional drummer, another had a synth, and then all sorts of processing to cut instruments from the source and add themselves to the mix.. The theremini might be ideal for this sort of application.

"Sweetwater is telling me it'll be August, unless I want a return unit ("Every so often we get one returned").  Which I might take if I can get a discount.  If I open it I won't return it but sell it independently if it turns out to be a dog." - Dewster

LOL ;-) There could be more "return units" on the market than new ones! - This is an area where I dont know how the legal / ethical situation pans out .... If one gets a product returned, fixes anything wrong with it, fully tests and repackages it to "new" state, can this be sold as new? - I actually prefer buying "returned" items - Would probably do so even if the price wasn't reduced! .. I have had numbers of new items fail or be DOA, but never had this with any "returned" items - seems the extra testing / reconditioning is more stringent than the QC on new items!

"Please don't delete stuff. My apologies. I am not here to police the thread. I've just noticed the number of eyes on this thread far exceeds the number of people posting. ... a good opportunity to say what you need to say, but not good if what you say is not good. " - Randy

Yeah - But this is the crunch! - Its tempting to believe that one has the "right" to post something OT and perhaps controversial because one believes it to be "good" - But for every such thing, there are others who will see what you deem "good" as "bad"... Someone could just as easily post about the "merits" of military technology, and claim that the music industry benefits from "spin off" - the thread then spins off into an interesting but potentially explosive / emotive "debate" (at best ;-) but I need to keep in mind that TW isnt my soap-box!  I think we all have the "right" (duty?) to "police the thread" if we see things going "wrong" - I think your comments were fully justified regardless of whether you agreed or disagreed with what I was saying! - One thing was indisputable - what I was saying had nothing to do with theremins or the theremini!

Fred.

"LOL ;-) There could be more "return units" on the market than new ones! - This is an area where I dont know how the legal / ethical situation pans out .... If one gets a product returned, fixes anything wrong with it, fully tests and repackages it to "new" state, can this be sold as new?"  - FredM

Sweetwater is quite responsive, almost to a fault!  They're telling me I would at least get an open box discount, more if it's not in the best of shape, and free shipping and the 2 year warranty would still apply.  I'm attempting to get it set up for "shiphold" so they are required to contact me before they ship, at which point I could still put the kibosh on the deal [EDIT] but it seems there are ~40 people in front of me in the queue [/EDIT].  I'm going on vacation in August and don't want things coming to the house and sitting out for too long, and by late August I could probably snag a new unit from Kraft and get a few goodies thrown in "free".

What likely what made Moog Moog was Moog.  High quality products that require a lot of engineering development effort need crackerjack engineers at the top doing the work and calling the shots.

Ive been holding off on commenting because of my involvement with the theremini manual but now that it is  shipping its probably ok to give a review.  

I ve had many opportunities to play the theremini, mostly demo units but more recently moog had donated 10 new units to the NY Theremin Society to use with our kids and adult theremin workshops- so I had the opportunity to experience it straight from the box.

Basically, I think the theremini is pretty cool.   It is probably best suited for those interested but not already completely enamored with traditional theremins.   Great for the synth guy or girl who already has a lot of gear an would like to play with a pretty decent midi spacial controller.   Established theremin players most likely will not find this a suitable replacement for a good traditional instrument... but the theremini does do some really fun stuff not possible on an etherwave. =ex. pitch quantization.   I really dont see how this will help someone learn, but it it does open up some exciting new doors for completely different sounds styles of playing.

BTW:To fully disable the pitch quantization and play the theremini like a traditional theremin,  the Pitch BIAS knob has to be set for zero AND the scale has to be set for 'Chromatic'- the default scale for the 'traditional theremin' patch is ionic or something.  (pitch bias is kinda like a backwards glide knob and even at 0  it will still be locked into the notes of a given scale )  The presets are ok- looking forward to playing with the upcoming patch editor.

Biggest dislikes :The mic adapter and the lack of a knob based fine tuning.   The digital tuning procedure is kinda tedious, fine for initial setup, but impractical for any kind of performance use.   It would be an easy addition- to add some instant knob-based fine tuning, hopefully to be added to future firmware.

The theremini does exactly what it was aimed to do- appeal to kids and reach a new audience not already enticed by their etherwave.  Moog had seen interest in theremins and sales of the etherwave (which is definitely going to remain in production) recede over the past few years and they were looking to create an instrument to appeal to a broader crowd. Maybe some will get hooked ...  I cant confirm anything, but I was told that  Moog will be introducing more "professional-level' instruments down the road.

Thank you, Charles. You have confirmed most of my guesswork. As I know next to nothing about MIDI, can you confirm that I will be able to change various settings using its MIDI-IN capabilities whilst performing. (For example to use a foot-switch to change the root note, or to create an arpeggiator using the MIDI Transpose command.)

PS. Excellent work on the manual. :-)

Thanks Charles,  great feedback!

 I think we're now reaching a consensus with what the Theremini is and where its strengths and weaknesses are.  

Could some brave person please post video of their Theremini?  It doesn't have to be a performance. A run though of all the presets one at a time would be very useful to look at/listen to.  I'm now especially interested in how the quantization is only zero when the chromatic scale is chosen.  We can glean a lot of info just by listening.

It's clear enough (as complex as it may be) how the instrument is tuned, what audience it was intended for, but I'm always interested in pushing the boundaries of our initial impressions, particularly when there are features that have not been fully explored. 

"BTW:To fully disable the pitch quantization and play the theremini like a traditional theremin,  the Pitch BIAS knob has to be set for zero AND the scale has to be set for 'Chromatic'- the default scale for the 'traditional theremin' patch is ionic or something.  (pitch bias is kinda like a backwards glide knob and even at 0  it will still be locked into the notes of a given scale )"  - Chobbs

Hmm.  The manual doesn't seem to state the above rather important seeming piece of information:

"When the Pitch Correction knob is at its minimum setting, no pitch correction is being applied, and the Theremini functions just as a traditional Theremin."  - Theremini manual

I've not fiddled with one, so I'm not sure if I could have figured this out by fiddling around with it.

I wonder why the "traditional theremin" patch doesn't default to the chromatic scale?

This all sounds a bit too "MicroSoft" for my liking! ;-) ... Here's your new Windows, with built in Explorer.. You dont like IE? - Tough! it was integrated to a level (until the litigation) that most users couldn't easily switch to another browser..

Don't like quantization? - We spent a lot of time and effort putting it in*, we have decided that this is how future theremins will behave, so you will just have to get bloody used to it!

Its just rude!

For a theremin, IMO, quantization should be an extra you must deliberately switch in - the default state on power up should be theremin, not some quacky quantizing gimmick... And when not deliberately switched in, there should be absolutely no audible trace of any quantizing at all.

Or at least, as Dewster says, "I wonder why the "traditional theremin" patch doesn't default to the chromatic scale?" when a "theremin" preset is selected, this should be devoid of all audible quantizing unless quantizing is deliberately enabled.

To be honest, I have my doubts (but this is pure speculation) about whether the theremini can be truly free from ALL audible quantizing - I suspect that it has low resolution and quantizing is at its heart - I suspect that if musical quantization is not imposed to some degree, fussy players with good hearing wont like the 'zipper' effect that crappy quantization produces.. So even at the lowest setting, all that is happening is that the 'zipper' is made more musical (which may explain why chromatic mode is required for "0" quantization setting - it will fool more people into believing there isn't quantization)

Fred.

*Or if my speculation is correct, "we use quantization to hide the fact that the theremini is a cheap crude piece of digital junk"

-> Just been studying the manual..

IF what is said in it is true, then the theremini could be impressive -

The pitch CC MIDI output goes to 14 bit resolution (?) - this is more than enough for quantization free audio to be generated by an external engine (biggest problem could be finding a synth that accepts this data)... But more relevant is that IF 14 bit data is available to output on MIDI, it must also be available to the Animoog engine, and therefore there should be no quantization issues.

--------- From the manual ------>

Choose either 7-bit or 14-bit MIDI output

<----------

Note: The above does not appear in any MIDI implementation chart. 14 bit resolution is IMPLIED - but is this true? Personally, I doubt it!

The manual lacks any real "meat" - Like how many bits are actually output .. MIDI transmits 7 bit "packets" for CC messages - you can select either (extremely) low resolution (7 bits.. ie a value from 0 to 127) by transmitting single packets (which makes things faster) or two "packets" giving a possible 14 bit (value from 0 to 16348).. if  you want to send 10 bits (0 to 1024) or even 8 bits (0 to 256)  you still need two 'packets'.. The absolute minimum required for somewhat acceptable pitch control is, IMO, 12 bits (0 to 4096).. Two packets, fully packed, into a suitable receiver, (14 bits) should be good.

It would be real interesting to connect the theremini midi output to a midi analyzer - that would show what the minimum core resolution was - If less than 14 bits are being transmitted (as in, some most significant bits are padded with zeros) , one can be sure that whatever is transmitted is the maximum resolution obtainable. (it would also be interesting to confirm that bits increment in a unitary manner - that they dont step in quantized intervals corresponding to the pitch correction engine - that whatever the number of bits transmitted, any value is available from these bits)

I'm not a gambler - but I would put money on it being less than 14 bits, I would be inclined to guess 12 bits at best, but wouldn't be too surprised if it was only 10 bits.

Does anyone have a REAL technical specification for this "instrument" ?  The MIDI implementation chart is a JOKE, it doesn't fully follow the conventions laid down by the MMA (even the implementation charts available with toy keyboards are better)

I am always uncomfortable when full specification is not disclosed - Almost always, this is because the manufacturer is deliberately hiding something. If the specification (resolution, linearity, latency etc) was something to brag about, they would likely be bragging - or at least publishing this data... But all we get is meaningless waffle - "Award winning Animoog.." "Heterodyning analog oscillator" (which is utterly irrelevant and misleading for this product)

With analogue theremins, there may be some excuse for vague specifications - simply because the designer / manufacturer doesn't know the specifications.. But with a digital "instrument like the theremini, ALL the data (with possible exception of linearity) will be available - Resolution, latency, full MIDI spec - they have it on file - its impossible for them not to have it.

It looks so tempting though - access to waveforms and filters via midi, 14 bit pitch data etc.. Light reading and I can see how folks could think a superb instrument had been born..

MOOG - If this is the superb instrument the manual hints at, could you PLEASE clear up these questions! PUBLISH THE FULL SPECIFICATION! - Even if most users wont understand them, people like me and others here will - and we will inform others about what they mean! - I have no agenda to put Moog down, If I saw Moog was producing a great instrument, I would happily admit that I was wrong and endorse the instrument - But IF you are producing crap and making false claims, I get angry and say so! - And right now this looks like what you are doing!

On saturday i'll do a video demo with my Theremini, i'll try to cover all aspects of it. Note: it is possible to play with auto pitch-adjust and vibrato!, but it so difficult as to play in tune.

I've had one of these for a couple of weeks, and like it a lot, also am confused by/hate the weird stand connector. I was looking for reviews of it, and found this site. Maybe I can help a bit with some of the conjecture.

About the quantization:

Some people seem to be outraged about it, so keep in mind, you can use it or not. The knobs have live edit, so you can adjust them to your liking just by adjusting the knobs. The reason the Theremin preset has quantization, is that the preset was saved that way. Weird choice, I agree, but totally changeable, instantly, just by adjusting the quantization knob. When you power up the unit, it defaults to the last preset that was active when it was powered down. Although you can't currently save edited presets via the front panel (why not??!?), there is an editor in the works according to the people I talked to at Moog that will let you do this soon. You can set up a preset just the way you like it, and have that called up on boot up. The Midi implementation chart shows what can be adjusted, and since the firmware is up-dateable, there's always the chance that more features can be added in the future. All the stuff currently listed works...make up a Midi controller on your IPad, and check it out for yourself. TB Midi Stuff or Midi Designer are both good platforms for this kinda experimentation.

Also, about the quantization, you don't have to select the chromatic scale to get no quantization with the knob turned down. Selecting different scales just changes which notes will appear in the built in tuner display, and push the root note tuning for a particular position around a little. It still scans smoothly through all pitches regardless of the scale selected. As the quantization knob is turned up, it begins to lock on to the scale-induced pitches. Make sense?

With no quantization, i can't detect any noticeable zippering of pitches, and I don't see any by looking at the output with a Peterson strobe tuner, just a continuously variable pitch. How many bits? I dunno, but I don't think the resolution will be a problem for anyone. I haven't gotten around to using the Midi to control other synths yet...I've been having too much fun just playing with the Theremini itself. This is my first Theremin, so I don't really have any preconceived notions of what to expect, I'll admit.

One annoying thing to me is that the volume knob only affects the built-in speaker and headphone amp, not the main outs, although they can be set via Midi. Maybe this could be changed later. The USB jack is one of those mini types. Hate 'em.

Like the unit, though.

"Some people seem to be outraged about it, so keep in mind, you can use it or not." - Synthguy

Thanks for your input, and welcome to TW!

If quantization can be completely turned off, and if "you don't have to select the chromatic scale to get no quantization with the knob turned down." and if the resolution wont be "a problem for anyone" then the major issue / problem (for those wanting a theremin) disappears.. I think the only justification for "outrage" is if pitch quantization was forced on us, and/or there was residual quantization which could be heard (by those with "good" ears) even if it was turned off.

There are still a load of unknowns that anyone seriously looking to buy a theremini for "theremin playing" really need to know - Things like linearity and latency are probably the most important of these... But by far the biggest issue was quantizing - and if this isnt an issue, then the instrument is worth exploring.

As GordonC said / hinted, it looks like the synth user market was targeted - and the theremini may well be ideal for this group (and probably far better for synthesists than other space-field controllers based on optical sensing) - and for this crowd, deliberate quantizing with adjustable degree is great - all sorts of useful "effects" (strumming etc) could probably be implemented, as well as theremin-like playing.

"The Midi implementation chart shows what can be adjusted" - Yes, it does.. But it doesn't show anything about what can be transmitted - Absolutely no output specification.. The only data on MIDI output is what can be gleaned from the set-up instructions.

Also, the CC numbers / functions are so badly presented that its almost impossible to work out what data one would send -

Manual ---->

All implemented controller numbers 0 - 31 have corresponding LSB (fine)
controls at locations 32 - 63. Certain controllers adjust parameters which
can be negative or positive. For these controllers, sending 0 sets the pa

<------

But there is no data on which controllers behave in such a way, there is no standard MIDI implementation chart which clearly defines all the functions. The Midi Manufacturers Association (of which Moog is an early member) has spent a lot of effort clearly defining the format for MIDI implementation charts - Moog has not followed this format, and even the earliest MIDI charts were far more comprehensive than what they have published for this product - FULL MIDI implementation charts are essential for anyone wanting to fully utilize any MIDI product, or for those wishing to develop interface / hardware / software for such products.

There is no data about whether, when adjusting parameters from the theremini, this is transmitted on MIDI (I assume its not) .. Even at a simple level, if one wanted to use a generic patch editor or remote MIDI controller, you need the data - Ok, there is probably enough data in the manual to allow someone to get an external controller to work with it - but it would involve a lot of trial and messing about by someone who knew MIDI and could evaluate the result of any "tweak" - A couple of extra pages or a downloadable full specification and MIDI implementation chart would save all this effort and frustration. Just like not supplying an adaptor and forcing people to waste their time trying to locate one, Moog seems to go out of its way to piss off its customers!

" I don't see any by looking at the output with a Peterson strobe tuner, just a continuously variable pitch."

I would be really interested to know - if you can answer this question, the matter of quantization could be laid to rest, one way or another..

What pitch increments does your tuner show? - because if you can increment / decrement the pitch in 1 cent (or better) intervals over a few notes, then there is no quantization or resolution issue.. If however the increments have larger jumps (particularly if they step in increments > 2 cent steps) then there certainly is a problem.. A Peterson tuner I once used had 0.1 cent resolution - it was quite impossible to hold better than 1 cent stable with a theremin ;-) and, to be honest, staying within 3 cents was difficult - BUT - I believe it is this which gives the theremin some of its tonal qualities.. the tuner was showing a different value at every update, and the 0.x value was like a random number generator giving any and every number from 0 to .9 .. This is where quantization would probably be observed - if these numbers are always jumping to a few (<9) values.

Fred.