Moog Music Theremini Reviews

The manual says approx 0.83 seconds for max delay time, but doesn't specify if that's for stereo or mono - I guess it's about 1.66 if just one channel is used, which is OK, if not brilliant. I'd be disappointed if it was less than a second, but two would be better. 

The manual says approx 0.83 seconds for max delay time..."  - GordonC"

I noticed that too, and it struck me as rather (There)minimal.  That's 2 bytes / sample * 2 channels (assuming stereo) * 48k samples / sec (at most) * 0.83 sec = 160kB.  Better than nothing I suppose, though it appears to be simple delay and not reverb.  Reverb algorithms tend to be fairly complex and processor intensive.  The processor in the Theremini is likely more than an Arduino, and less than an ARM.

Sorry - but I just dont understand! ;-) ...  Surely if one wants long / fancy delay or reverb etc, one can easily and cheaply get an external box? - Hell, how many theremins have built-in digital delay? I have never heard anyone being "disappointed" because theremin x doesn't have it.

Yeah, there's probably a big lesson to be learned here.. If you add anything "extra" to a theremin, it needs to be as good as what folks expect from a similar function implemented in an external box.. Add MIDI, and it must drive any MIDI synth, add delay and perhaps it needs to compete with a dedicated delay unit.

0.83 secs is, IMO, more than adequate to impart subtle "enrichment" of sound and IMO is all that is needed for this function - its not enough to repeat sequences, but for tone enhancement it should be great.

Most of the fun with electronic music was, IMO, "derailed" by the horrible concept of the "workstation" - These gross keyboards which embodied all the electronics of a small studio and plonked it all on a small LCD display .. "work" - because that's what synthesis became, and "station" because it was about as much fun as waiting for a train!

Theremini workstation next ?   :-(

Fred.

Fred. It's an interesting delay because its settings can be controlled over MIDI, but unsatisfactory for me because I am used to longer delays. Yes I can use an external delay pedal, but at the cost of losing the MIDI control. So, pleasure in discovering it has this built in, but disappointment that it is not everything it could be. It's not like massive amounts of RAM is expensive.

"It's not like massive amounts of RAM is expensive."  - GordonC

The digital piano / keyboard field is like this too.  Flash is <$0.50/GB and we're still getting piano samples compressed 100:1 via essentially butchering.  Digital musical instruments exist in something of a technological backwater - which I kind of get when we're talking small manufacturers, but not giants like Yamaha.

800ms or so seems about right. I was remembering it as a bit longer. It won't be long enough to do looping type stuff, but is a nice addition as a programmable (and Midi controllable) element in a preset. It is just delay, and is configured as a stereo ping-pong type. The delay can be set very short to make resonances with the feedback turned up. No reverb.

I think that there are lots of longer delays out there with Midi, especially the dedicated loopers.

The CV out is set at 2.5V/Octave and 5V/Octave. Not sure what that's about, but either could be scaled to fit older 1V/Octave gear.

Given the low price point of this unit vs the capabilities ( and future possibilties), I think that the engineers at Moog did a pretty remarkable job with this. I've noticed that most of the Moogerfooger pedals cost more than a Theremini, to put things into perspective. Even with the crude tools I've cobbled together to program/mess with it, I've been having a blast!

"The CV out is set at 2.5V/Octave and 5V/Octave. Not sure what that's about, but either could be scaled to fit older 1V/Octave gear." - Synthguy

Are you sure about that?  - I thought the 0-10V range would be 1V/Octave (covering 10 possible octaves - ie, giving 0 to 7V for 7 octaves) and the 0-5V range giving 0.5V/Octave

5V per octave would deliver 0-35V output for a 7 octave span - I doubt these voltages are available in the theremini and suspect some VC equipment could be damaged by it if it was! ;-)

Gordon, yes- I understand your disappointment, particularly with the way you use theremins. I suspect its not so much the cost of RAM, but perhaps the location of this RAM.. It may be that RAM in the MCU is being used, and that more would have meant a more expensive part..

Dewster, I agree! - But perhaps it comes down to the fact that the vast majority of electronic instrument buyers couldn't tell the difference between a butchered compressed sample and a better one stored in more flash - If only 1% of buyers are a bit pissed off (but buy the equipment anyway) then the extra 50c per unit is (to the corporate / profit mentality) worth saving.

To me, this type of thing and thinking is at the core of most of the problems in the world - Lack of pride in what we do, what we produce, what we.. whatever. There was a time when reputation and quality was important - but those days ended when we got used to "disposable" products and demanded "affordable" products we didn't need to sweat and save to own.

Fred.

"But perhaps it comes down to the fact that the vast majority of electronic instrument buyers couldn't tell the difference between a butchered compressed sample and a better one stored in more flash - If only 1% of buyers are a bit pissed off (but buy the equipment anyway) then the extra 50c per unit is (to the corporate / profit mentality) worth saving."  - FredM

That's part of it, probably a big part.  But it's getting to the point where all the NRE spent on engineers cramming 100lb sample sets into 1lb bags could be greatly relieved by adding a couple of $ of Flash.  There's a massive revolution going on wherever computing is happening (ARM & Linux) and products that don't reflect this, particularly flagship keyboards and such which rely heavily on computation & OS, are real head scratchers.  My favorite example of this is the Yamaha AvantGrand, which costs more than a real piano, but has a relatively tiny sample set (it's not solo recording quality, so much of it's usefulness goes out the window).

"To me, this type of thing and thinking is at the core of most of the problems in the world - Lack of pride in what we do, what we produce, what we.. whatever. There was a time when reputation and quality was important - but those days ended when we got used to "disposable" products and demanded "affordable" products we didn't need to sweat and save to own."

I agree. 

It seems even when the HW platform is up to snuff, SW holds it back because it is too expensive to really do right.  There are those of us out here who would likely take up the gauntlet for peanuts or even nothing, but manufacturers are too scared to open their products up to scrutiny due to "trade secrets" etc.  When in reality, the manufacturing process is enough of a headache/hurdle to keep 99% of people from copying your stuff, even if you give them complete instructions on how to do so and hold their hand all the way through.  Market barriers are more practical than informational IMO.  And many markets are too small for companies of any size to care about at all, much less launch a well thought out and soundly implemented product into.

Further investigation reveals that the note spread selected influences the V/Oct ratio. I initially looked last night at a 2 octave spread to make it easier to measure with a voltmeter. Increasing the spread "tunes" the ratio. I got close to 1V/Octave response with 10 volt range, pitch correction on, chromatic scale, and about a 9 1/2 octave spread. I'll have to wait until I've got an analog synth with CV inputs to see if I can do better. Also to get a better idea of what effect the pitch correction is having on the CV.

"Further investigation reveals that the note spread selected influences the V/Oct ratio. " - Synthguy

IMPORTANT! - It seems data regarding the operation of CV, on which the following comments were founded, may be incorrect!

Well, if that's true, then its idiotic!  (sorry - there's no nicer word to use!).

CV ratio (V/Octave) is an absolute - it cannot be allowed to change for any reason - regardless of how the theremin is tuned or how many notes it spans, every octave MUST be EXACTLY the linear increment specified - so if set to output 1V per octave, each semitone increase in audio pitch (from the theremini) MUST output 1/12th of a volt increase - and changing the tuning or any other factor should have absolutely no effect on this ratio.

And if it doesn't do that, then Moog (Who I believe established the 1V/Octave standard) - Should be looking to terminate the employment of whatever engineer/s was/were responsible -  and have a major review of their QC and check that their engineers understand enough analogue electronics to do their jobs.

  - Because a company that allowed such a gross error to slip through on a matter so fundamental to everything they did and do, well ...

So far, this is (to me) the most damning thing I have heard about the theremini - and a thing that (if true) would make it useless even for their (probably)  primary customers - analogue synth users.

Fred

A bit OT:

"My favorite example of this is the Yamaha AvantGrand, which costs more than a real piano, but has a relatively tiny sample set" - Dewster

Is this down to convenience more than anything else? I would expect high-end product like this to only be acceptable to the target market if it met their requirements... So why are people buying these instruments? - There must be something about it (keyboard feel or whatever) that causes people to part with their money.. And if Yamaha can get away with some sound card they have developed, and not need to invest in a new card, and the card they use is  "high end enough" to keep the majority happy (and those with higher demands who like the keyboard will probably drive an external MIDI piano sample player anyway) - Then it probably makes commercial sense (at first glance) to do what they're doing..

However, as you and I and those without the "bean-counting" mentality know, IF you give your customer something better than they expect, If you give them sounds that "educate" them and show them how inferior the competitors instruments sound by comparison, then there's a good chance they will stay loyal customers.

Or that's the theory anyway..... I am, however, starting to doubt that theory. I think the mush we are all now listening to - the MP3 compression for example - is eroding the appreciation of audio quality... Really, apart from the few who lived through a few decades of real Hi-Fi between the 60's and 90's and those who regularly listen to live acoustic performances, most people really cannot tell the difference between an acoustic grand piano and a clavinova, or a Lev theremin and a theremini!

Fred.