Moog Music Theremini Reviews

xtheremin8 / dani:

Thanks for that info! 

No one here has commented yet on the size / linearity of the Theremini pitch field.  Could you do so? 

A necessarily small and cramped pitch field would be would be fairly damning.  A large one that is somewhat linear at least in the mid field could make some of the other negative issues raised less urgent.

Moved this post to control-voltages-cvs-and-synth-stuff- page=0

"A necessarily small and cramped pitch field would be would be fairly damning.  A large one that is somewhat linear at least in the mid field could make some of the other negative issues raised less urgent." - Dewster

I agree -

But to me it pans out like this..

Thereminists and probably the majority of those interested in the theremini as a theremin, arent going to be too bothered by CV out or MIDI out - They will be more interested in linearity, stability, playability and "theremin-like" sounds.

The other market however - the synth crowd, are probably going to be more interested in CV and MIDI than almost anything else.

Three big market chunks - Thereminists, Synthesists, and those who want a low cost stand alone instrument just for fun.

Things are looking like Moog may only have satisfied customers in the latter group.. Its probably the biggest group - so they may well still do ok with it... But  surprise is that the (probably next most important group, their primary customer base, ) the synth users are the ones who seem to have been short-changed the most.

Moog cannot afford to do this - because it will impact on sales of their other, far more important products if they piss this group off... And there are quite a number of people on synth forums (and no, I am NOT stirring up trouble on these! I have only said "nasty" things about Moog here! ;-) asking questions like "Well, whats the CV for then, if you cannot control pitch with it?" and lots of misinformation being presented, like claims that the analogue heterodyning voice is available - Misinformation that was seeded by Moog, and which will come back and impact them because they will lose customer trust and loyalty.

IF, However, The theremini doesnt have the CV problems that have been touted, and IF the theremini has a good specification, THEN Moogs lack of clarity and silence on these forums is just unbelievable. It would only require one knowledgeable Moog employee actively engaging with forum posts, and clearly and authoritatively putting matters straight, and/or Moog to release comprehensive specifications for issues to be resolved.

Yes, there are quite a few forums - but really not that many that it would even be a full-time job to deal with the storm that's brewing.

COME ON MOOG!   GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER! - Contact one of the many competent people who have tried to get through to you but had no reply, give them the information, and you probably wont even need to employ a fire-fighter !

I want the Theremini to be good, and have good CV output! - I have a design for an external add-on which has a market only if the theremini CV and CC work!

" I never once thought of the CV 'following' the output pitch.  We probably would not be discussing on this topic, if everyone thought that to begin with.  " - Randy.

On the EW-Pro, the CV out tracks the pitch (I dont think it tracks the register switching - not sure.. But it certainly gives 1V/Octave output on the "primary" pitch from what I have heard). The EW+ CV output tracks the pitch (as it doesnt have register switching, pitch tracking is across the whole span - except that tracking fails below about 100Hz because it uses the actual audio to derive the pitch data).

So I personally dont think it unreasonable to expect the theremini to track the pitch, or reasonable for people to have assumed that it didnt! ;-)

From a technical perspective (particularly when one has a digital processor dealing with the data) there is no comprehensible reason for not implementing CV which tracks the pitch, regardless of the span or register or auto-tuning or whatever.. You have an audio output (as on the EW+) you even have the option of providing a simple digitally generated frequency (square wave or whatever) several octaves higher than the audio output which could reduce latency and allow tracking right down to 16Hz (I have done this using PLL's to multiply the HF oscillator frequencies before heterodyning them, to produce a frequency 8x the audio frequency from the audio heterodyning mixer).. You also have the possibility of doing exponentiation digitally --- but staying with analogue, all the pulse / timing stuff needed in the EW+ pitch-voltage converter could be mopped up in the MCU. Even if there is smoothing between increments and low resolution is hidden by this, taking the audio as the CV reference would still work!

It could have been beautiful! To do the job well (using analogue exponentiation) might have added $5 at most to the cost - in fact, it would have been better IMO if Moog had just put the signal generation stuff in the MCU (zero production cost, perhaps a couple of days development cost) and had a tiny CV card that could be added at extra cost, rather than provide a useless CV out.

There is something of a slight historic precedent perhaps to what is happening at Moog.. Arp (their main competitor many years ago) went to the wall because they produced a guitar pitch-CV controller/synth  that messed up on its CV conversion/outputs.. Oh, there were other problems as well, but failure of the CV to accurately track the pitch was the major killer.

Fred.

Thanks Fred for sharing all of the above. It may be a feature that few people will end up using, but I think this topic has been very educational. Eventually, I'd like to get my hands on a synth with CV inputs again (I come from the opposite end of the spectrum compared to most,  as a thereminist first).

Back in 2007 I had access to a  Moog Voyager for a short time while I put together my video cover of Gnarls Barkley 'Crazy'. I spent quite a lot of time playing around with the CV connections between my EPro and the Voyager. I even built two muliplier cables to access more possibilities since the Moog voyager had so many inputs. I do remember the pitch of the Voyager following 1:1 with the E-pro's pitch.  If i recall correctly, the register switch however had no effect on the Pitch CV.

Playing melodies on the Voyager with my Epro, I must say, was very musically satisfying. That experience would specifically be owed to 1:1 Pitch CV tracking (and the Volume CV being there too).

Hi Randy,

"It may be a feature that few people will end up using, but I think this topic has been very educational. "

Oh, I fully agree that most people HERE are unlikely to be much interested in CV, and its a topic far more common on synth sites. Its only because the theremini seems plonked somewhere between theremin and synth that I raised the matter and gave a mini "tutorial".

I suspect loads of confused people are trying to get answers, and Google is directing them here and to a few other forums.. A lot of these people wont be the "usual" visitors to this site.

If anyone in the UK has a theremini and wants me to check it out for purpose of interfacing it to a synth, I would be more than happy to check it out! -Just contact me, bring it over (Eastleigh, near Winchester) and spend a couple of hours while we test things.

If its established that pitch CV is usable and MIDI Volume CC is usable, I will knock a board together and program a PSoC to convert the volume CC to a CV, and get it all running (this could take a few days, so you dont need to hang around - but you would need to leave your theremini with me for a week.. I will do the work for free, but you could buy us a curry or something if you want when you pick it up ;-)

Fred.

Over on youtube searching for "theremini" and sorting by post date, I found this (sorry in advance):

Granted it's filmed with a fish-eye lens, but if you watch the first 45 seconds or so you'll see how non-linear the pitch field is.  Looks very cramped near the antenna and super spread out in the far field.  The pitch quantization really points this out, he actually has to take a step backward in order to get the next note out of it.

I suppose there is the possibility that it wasn't autocalibrated or otherwise set up correctly.  But if I walked up to *any* Theremin with a pitch field this non-linear, I'd be able to detect it almost instantly.  So I'm kind of confused as to why there are no comments about it.

Why oh why is it so hard to find out this basic kind of info re the Theremini - particularly here at TW of all places?  I just want to know the truth, wherever it leads.

Exhibit #2:

The camera angle isn't ideal for judging hand / pitch antenna distance, but it seems telling that she doesn't play it more than a foot or so away.  In fact, note the way her pitch hand spends a majority of the time within a fairly small playing window.

I'm getting a vibe that many people are reluctant to discuss anything with the word "Moog" on it in even slightly negative terms.  The Theremini looks like a fun toy, but IMO the true breathtaking majesty of the Theremin can only be experienced with a large, fairly linear, pitch field.

Dorit has an unusual playing style- I dont think she ever plays more than a foot away from the antenna- and she is a leftie and is standing behind the theremini which makes it look even weirder.  Havent played with mine in a bit but I dont recall the linearity being any worse than the EW.

The auto calibration is a PIA and very likely could account for any apparent range issues.  

"Havent played with mine in a bit but I dont recall the linearity being any worse than the EW.  The auto calibration is a PIA and very likely could account for any apparent range issues." - Chobbs

Thanks for that!  I'm going to have to get my hands on (or not on ;-) one of these.

Thanks for pasting those, Dewster!

I am inclined to agree with your observations regarding field linearity - particularly in Demo 1, the non-linearity is obvious and severe... BUT - As you say, we dont know if the instrument was set-up / calibrated correctly.

Here are MY opinions (subjective and I accept fully that others feel differently)..

Demo1 is what I expect most theremini performances will look (and sound) like - Dial up a scale / key sig, and sweep ones arm about - how can you go wrong? ;-) Play a tune? who wants to play a tune ??

Its a bit like if one had a keyboard which muted all "off key" notes, and you just swept your hand over the keyboard not caring which keys were hit, because they could only be "right".... The difference is that such a keyboard would be superior, because at least you could accurately select any active key anywhere on the keyboard if you wanted, and if you wanted to actually play a tune in that key.

Demo2 is IMO much more interesting, and demonstrates a real musical use for the theremini - the sounds / drones / synth pads..

At $299 those wanting access to this type of sound / instrument can get it, and get the auto-tune features allowing the type of thing done in demo1, and (by the looks of it) get a passable but not particularly good (in terms of linearity or sound) "theremin" which does, however, have some extremely useful features such as variable span.  IMO Not a bad deal at all, if that's what you are after!

The above makes the instrument a great buy for the non-demanding home studio musician with a small budget, who doesn't have or want to control a stack of synth modules, and who doesn't have the time/ability/patience/need to master the theremin, and who doesn't have hearing that makes causes them to reject "Animoog synth" sounds and demand the sound of real analogue synths.

In other words, the theremini is likely to be a big hit - because most people who buy it wont be bothered by things that would probably irritate the hell out of me, and for different reasons probably irritate the hell out of most thereminists.

" I'm going to have to get my hands on (or not on ;-) one of these." - Dewster

Yeah - I do understand this! - Hell, an expansion card for one of my digital synths would cost the same as a theremini and probably be less fun! - But would I sell my Juno 6 and spend 1/3rd of the money to buy a theremini? ... Its the only analogue synth I own that I would even think of doing that with, and I think the answer is no!

"I'm getting a vibe that many people are reluctant to discuss anything with the word "Moog" on it in even slightly negative terms. " - Dewster

LOL ;-) I am well damned then! - Trying hard to redeem myself a bit by saying as many positive things as I can though! ;-)

"Why oh why is it so hard to find out this basic kind of info re the Theremini - particularly here at TW of all places?  I just want to know the truth, wherever it leads." - Dewster

When specifications are not forthcoming from manufacturers, I tend to be wary! - To me, if you have a good specification, you boast about it! (and dont just do an empty boast, you back it up by publishing verifiable data)  .. But I may be wrong .. As an engineer, I am used to comparing scientific specifications, and all manufacturers know that their sales depend on the quality of the specifications they provide.. There was a time (50's - 90's)? when (certainly for audio equipment) manufacturers provided high quality data / specifications to the public, because buyers were fussy and knowledgable and made careful choices - again, sales depended on data / specification / reputation.

But this rarely happens anymore. So we are left with subjective "truth" -

And with something like the theremin, such "truth" is almost completely worthless... But "Objective truth"?  There isn't even a standardized "way" to specify linearity, and I am not sure there could be unless a test-house, with controlled capacitances, had a robotic arm or whatever and plotted for one standard configuration... Theremins just arent worthy of such effort!

Fred.