Moog Music Theremini Reviews

Several posts appeared while I was preparing this reply to Dewsters post -

Ilya - Great work producing that schematic ! ... This looks to me like confirmation that the issues Dewster found re linearity are likely to be the instrument to blame and not a grounding issue.. Extremely low antenna voltage simply doesnt give good far-field sensitivity and tends to compress the near field from my experience.. The antenna inductor shown IS NOT a series eq inductor, its simply a ferrite HF suppressor, and will not elevate the antenna voltage or provide any linearization.

I assumed the IC was a dual BJT because I believed what Moog had implied (something I wont ever make the mistake of doing again) that the design of the front end was based on the etherwave.

MAJOR RANT STARTS HERE ;-) =====>

I agree wholeheartedly with Wilcos comments:

"

So I am not happy with the Theremini. Not for myself, as a thereminist in the largest sense of the word, and what is more, not for the theremin community. Because of the lower price, I think many potential theremin players will prefer to buy the cheaper Theremini, but they will not experience what a theremin truly is, and quickly set it aside as a toy for Halloween or at a party, but they will not consider buying a ''real' theremin afterwards.

Lastly, I very much wish Moog Music would not present the Theremini as a serious instrument, for the new generation of theremin players. The world has enough conformity as it is. And listening to the Clara Rockmore CDs as they suggest in the manual does not help, because even she wouldn't be able to play a theremini like that.

"

But having now seen Ilya's schematic, I would be harsher.. Moog have been telling LIES IMO ! - They effectively told us that the theremini had an etherwave derived front-end - IT DOESNT HAVE ANYTHING EVEN REMOTELY RESEMBLING THE EW FRONT END!! - what it has is the cheapest, crudest, nastiest oscillators probably ever placed into any production theremin!. I see no analogue reference oscillator, and presume this is either entirely numeric, or output from the DSP.. It wont drift in sympathy with the antenna oscillator.

Also, antenna direct to the input of a CMOS inverter! No ESD protection whatsoever! .. Wear ESD straps when assembling the toy, then ship it with bloody great conductor (antenna)  that plugs directly to a hi-Z input of a CMOS gate - are they morons???? - or do they just not give a shit? "Dont bother 'bout ESD - people wont notice the difference between a dead theremini and a live one anyway ;-) "

Moog went out of their way to mislead people about the nature of the theremini - I have seen numerous people on other forums expounding that 'fact' that the theremini had a heterodyning voice - false legend deliberately seeded by Moog.. And such is the faith and awe some folks have for Moog that I have been called a "troll" when I have simply stated that a heterodyning voice isnt available from the theremini.

If Moog had wanted to kill the theremin, to reverse everything Bob achieved in keeping this instrument alive and 'real', well, they could probably not have done any better at achieving that goal than they have with this theremini travesty.

"I think many potential theremin players will prefer to buy the cheaper Theremini, but they will not experience what a theremin truly is, and quickly set it aside as a toy for Halloween or at a party, but they will not consider buying a ''real' theremin afterwards."

"I very much wish Moog Music would not present the Theremini as a serious instrument, for the new generation of theremin players."

Wilco, You have, sadly, said all that there is to say about this TOY

All Moog needed to do to really boost the theremin and advance it, would have been to take the best from Bob's great designs, and package these in a low cost high end instrument.. If they can pack a pile of costly  complex circuitry into a  toy, for the same money they could have produced a damn good real theremin at least in the class of the EW+, perhaps better.

And whilst I have never been a huge advocate for digital theremins, I do believe good digital theremins are possible and imminent - Moog may well bring this direction into disrepute by producing something so inferior to what is easily achievable now with digital, that folks wont be interested in even trying another digital theremin (or as Wilco fears, any theremin) after experiencing the theremini.

END OF MAJOR RANT <=====

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 MINOR RANT ? ===>

"My sweeps weren't 100% scientific, and I had to do them without being able to hear the audio as my PC was hogging the headphone jack, but yes, that kind of latency behavior was pretty obvious when I could hear what I was doing. " - Dewster

Actually, doing the movements without hearing the audio may give more scientifically accurate results - Its almost impossible when actually hearing the sound to not use this as feedback, creating a closed-loop compensation mechanism... The fact that " that kind of latency behavior was pretty obvious when I could hear what I was doing." just underlines how bad its likely to be IMO - almost confirming a full-span TC of perhaps >250ms.

"There's no way you could do anything even vaguely percussive on it but you could likely play regular stuff (if you don't mind staying up close and personal with the pitch antenna). "

Perhaps another way of saying this is that if you limit your hand (and related pitch) movement to a small area of the the field, particularly the area close to the antenna - or stay within a couple of octaves (20cm?) within the most linear area of the field, you might (me being uncharitable ;o) just about manage a recognizable tune at 80BPM - And as you can probably move the required notes into this 'playable' zone, you should be able to "play" most things that dont traverse more than a couple of octaves.

As I see it, it comes down to the speed at which change in capacitance is "registered" and the resolution of the derived value - Pitch is a bit of a red herring, but its the only measurable output from which we can guess or deduce the other.. Unlike an analogue theremin where the audio is directly derived from capacitance change (or more precisely change to the oscillator frequency/s) the digital theremin 'invents' the pitch from a processed version of the oscillator frequency/s...

In these terms, my comments about "octave error" etc are incorrect - if two octaves were spread over the whole pitch field it would take the >250ms or whatever to change the pitch by 2 octaves, but if 7 octaves were in the field, it would take the >250ms or whatever to change the pitch by 7 octaves (and therefore perhaps only 50ms to change the 2 octaves in the required playing area).. So for rapid pitch change that needed to be low latency one would want to cram as many octaves in the field as you could get away with, and play in a small area of the field, limited to one or two octaves.

"I'm holding my arm out and sweeping it in a semicircle by twisting my body so that my hand and the pitch antenna are closest about 1/2 way through the sweep, so as to produce the smoothest change I can. "

Its not possible to derive any linearity plot from just the sample - and what I say next needs to be taken as entirely speculative with a high probability of being wrong..

I have found that the sweeping action you describe tends to give better linearity on crude theremins than the 'standard' (correct) method of outstretching the arm / hand towards the antenna - I have actually used this as a playing 'style' - its the way I play theremins like the Jaycar / Silicon Chip and derivations thereof. I think there is a practical geometric / mathematical reason - One is forming a changing angular capacitance between the body/arm/hand and the pitch antenna, and I think this gives more rapid rate of capacitance change in the far field, and reduces rate of change in the near field.

Having listened to many sweeps of crude theremins done in this way, and used this as a rough  guide to tuning and improving the linearity (particularly on my 16 H1's) - and if my memory serves me reasonably well, what I am hearing on your sweeps is extreme* non-linearity - there should be much more change in the far-field (bass) even from the crudest LC front end driven with sufficient current (ie antenna voltage) with a well grounded player.. And the change in the near field is way too extreme.*(Note: It may be that because I have always been listening while doing these sweeps, I was unconsciously applying 'closed loop' correction - I will have been doing this to some extent no matter how hard I tried to stop myself... In the light of this it may be that, had I heard recorded sweeps I had done without being in "the loop" they may have sounded as 'bad' as your sweeps do.. )

If this is due to the Theremini design, then IMO there's not much point in exploring this instrument further.. The only thing I will suggest though is that you ensure that your ground coupling is good.. Wrap some wire 'round your leg and connect it to the ground screw - just to confirm matters... One possible reason for what I am hearing is an ungrounded player capacitively coupling to both the antenna and the thereminis internal ground / power cable as they get close to the instrument - a dipole capacitive sensor if you like... This can happen with even the best theremin if the player (or theremin) is inadequately coupled to ground.

Fred.

"Nice charts!" - Dewster

Only discovered the spectral view [Shift+F] from the main window in Audition recently - replaces the waveform [Shift+W] and is real useful.

Using the above, zooming on the slopes, and measuring the time on these, I am now reasonably sure (as in, almost certain) that it takes the 'engine' longer than 300ms to track a full field change (I strongly suspect if one was to instantly move ones hand from lowest to highest note positions it would actually be more like 600ms before the pitch settled near the high note).

If the field was linear, we could probably be talking about something like 50ms per 10cm movement, or perhaps even 10ms/cm - so Wilco's 15ms latency on vibrato or trills could be spot on.. The limiting effect of this can be clearly seen in the short sweeps between 14 and 19 on the above chart..these should be peaking at somewhere near 4kHz - even if there were errors in exact closest distance on these sweeps, one would expect some of them to go at least to > 3kHz, but none goes above 1kHz, and the height variations are related to duration...

Its so unbelievably bad that its almost funny! And I am twixt thinking that Moog has assembled the most incompetent bunch of hacks ever to have plagued electronic musical instrument design, or that Moog management are the most cynical bunch of suits who ever exploited gullible devotees..

Either way, they deserve a barrage of returns from disgusted customers... In the past, I have dreamed that if I got money I could buy a new Moog Synth - Now I wouldn't buy anything Moog which Bob wasn't deeply involved with - Bob struggled to get his name back, its sickening to me to see what Moog Music is doing with his name.

Fred.

Fred, I value your opinions but being that you have disemboweled the only sponsor of the Theremin World website can you give an approximate date for delivery of a product from your lab? Can you make up for the revenue TW will lose however little that may be?

T

"Fred, I value your opinions but being that you have disemboweled the only sponsor of the Theremin World website can you give an approximate date for delivery of a product from your lab? Can you make up for the revenue TW will loose however little that may be?" - Touchless,

Moog is perfectly free to come here and "disembowel" my opinions and defend their product from my scalpel.

I am also a little tired of you exclusively picking on my comments - The really relevant postings on this subject arent from engineers, they are from the musicians - go back one page, the last posting there is quoting one such musician, and its more damning than anything I have said simply because most of what I say is not understood by potential purchasers anyway.

I had no idea that TW depended on Moog for its existence, or that Moog was TWs exclusive sponsor.. And IMO I dont really give a shit if it is! - If we arent able to speak our truth here, if we must be complicit in a SCAM and bow and scrape and allow thereminists to be mislead in order for TW to exist, well, perhaps it would be better if TW didnt exist.

If I am wrong on any technical opinion, I am happy to be shown that I am wrong. If I say something that is, or could be interpreted as being unreasonable / dishonest / libelous and am shown that I am wrong, I will apologize. There is no possible gain to me that I can see in making myself unpopular - and it makes no difference to me at all personally whether Moog sells billions of thereminis or PAiA  sells billions of Theremax (except that if anyone was selling loads of theremins, my situation may improve - because the bigger the market is seen to be, the easier it is to get venture capital should I wish to)

Unless there is some deep dark subconscious reason hidden from my view, I gain absolutely nothing by "disemboweling" anyone's product, and this is particularly true for any Moog product, as one immediately becomes hated by a lot of people if you do this.

If Moog had produced a good theremin, I would be endorsing it wholeheartedly - If I have a "technical loyalty" to anyone, its to Bob Moog - I think the man was a great man, inspired, creative, humble, crafty, and utterly brilliant at electronics (particularly analogue). Apart from that I felt a great affinity to his weirder ideas about the collective consciousness - I studied his patents before I was even a teen, it was his invention that pulled me into electronics, if it hadn't been for Bob my life would have been entirely different.. Hell, have you ever had a "hero" or "role model" ? Well Ive had a few, for different areas of my life - Jesus and Desmond Tutu for my "spiritual", Charles Darwin for science and utter integrity, Joe Slovo and Nelson Mandela for political / ethical, and Bob Moog for engineering and innovation. (Joe Slovo had some beliefs I was/am strongly opposed to, but I shared his anti-apartheid passion, and hugely admired his bravery and skills)

I detest the whole premise of your comment - I see it as TROLLING! .. You have made similar "challenges" to me on other pretexts in the past - particularly your "can you give an approximate date for delivery of a product from your lab?" has been posted before, and which I answered FULLY, stating that it was unlikely that I would ever be producing theremins, giving reasons, stating that all I AM ABLE TO DO is to put my ideas and designs into the public domain FREELY in the hope that something might be useful to some developer who can get product to market .. But you never came back - You ignored my reply but now present the same "question" - Except that its not a "question" is it ? Its just a nasty snide snipe at me, or in one word, trolling!

Please dont talk to me again -  Ignore me, I certainly will ignore you!

Fred.

Touchless,

Why are you targeting Fred when Wilco also said that the Theremini is also not a theremin for serious thereminists? Will you tell him to not post his opinion because Moog is the sponsor of this forum? 

That's bullsh!t. We are free to speak what we have on our mind. Good or Bad. If we can do it for every single bad Theremin player on YT, why not on a product even made by Moog? The general consensus seems to me that most people THAT I KNOW who have purchased it, sadly returned it. Why? Because it's crap.

Fred: "Its so unbelievably bad that its almost funny! And I am twixt thinking that Moog has assembled the most incompetent bunch of hacks ever to have plagued electronic musical instrument design, or that Moog management are the most cynical bunch of suits who ever exploited gullible devotees.."

Hello Amethyste, long time no chat. I probably over reached with my comment but as a retail seller and this being a public thread it was starting to hurt. My intention was in defense of the Moog Company who gives many people jobs with paychecks, not the snipes at a product. I apologize if anyone misunderstood or was offended.

T

Hello Touchless,

It seems that a lot of things and focus have shifted at Moog since Bob passed away. I just hope that all the sales from the Theremini will be enough to keep these paychecks coming.

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Touchless wrote: "Hello Amethyste, long time no chat. I probably over reached with my comment but as a retail seller and this being a public thread it was starting to hurt. My intention was in defense of the Moog Company who gives many people jobs with paychecks, not the snipes at a product. I apologize if anyone misunderstood or was offended."

Thanks Amey ;-)

Yeah - Im tired of damn trolls, and I really dont need to be here.. Who cares if a bunch of thereminists or wanna-be's are stupid enough to buy a useless toy just because it promises the ability to play in tune without effort and it says "Moog" on the plastic.

Why the hell should I give a shit? Bob is dead, he doesn't care anymore .. Its me whose being irrational - Of course we should all just shut up and talk about how great the old tube theremins were, and how great Clara was, and how crap every thereminist today is except the 5 or so selected by some masonic process..

And while we flop about talking rubbish, whats the harm in promoting our sponsor? Who cares if what we say about them is  bullshit, as long as we keep them happy - if we get to that state, where conformity is demanded and "heretics" have been trolled out, and the only engineering discussion allowed is whats comprehensible to those copying EW boards, and everything is dumbed down to the lowest common denominator, and discussion about anything 'new' is banned until one of the 5 has approved it...

If that ever happened, even the bots wouldn't bother visiting TW.

Fred.

"It seems that a lot of things and focus have shifted at Moog since Bob passed away. I just hope that all the sales from the Theremini will be enough to keep these paychecks coming." - Amey

May be a good idea for folks to read Stephen Covey's "7 habits of highly effective people" - Oh, I think its mostly bull, but its mostly good bull! ;-)

Moog had one thing that kept the paychecks coming - REPUTATION! .. Covey deals with this sort of thing in terms of a "bank account" analogy - Reputation and goodwill paid into this "account" can carry an individual or entity for a while, but like all accounts, if you draw more than you put in, eventually you go into the red..

IMO, to keep the paychecks coming, some deposits are required - Honesty and quality might be good for starters.. A useless plastic toy, no matter how many are produced and sold, will end up as withdrawals from the account - particularly as its being sold as something other than a toy.

One other habit Covey promoted (and which got taken out of context and abused) was the idea of "win-win" .. Except that the highest level of this, which should be aspired to, is "Win-Win or No deal" - As in, you dont take an action unless its a win-win.. You dont accept a "I win, you lose" or a "You win, I lose" - Because, as Covey (IMO Rightly) shows, anything except a win-win MUST produce a lose-lose.

And to me, a certain plastic electronic toy looks like a "we win, the customers lose" - But everyone will lose, and unless this mentality is corrected quickly, there is nothing in the universe that can prevent this loss, which may well eat paychecks.

And IMO its not the responsibility of a retailer to ensure the paychecks of the suppliers employees - Every individual or company is responsible for their employees and customers - If a supplier produces product that dont do what its supposed to as my customers expect, IMO it is my DUTY to advise my customers that the item is unsuitable, and to protect MY reputation and thereby protect MY employees paychecks. Its sad if the supplier and their employees suffer, but its not my responsibility! - And by hiding the problems from my customers I would NOT be improving ANYTHING for either my customers, or my company OR the supplier - Because its a LOSE-LOSE! (as all dishonesty is).

AND - Finally... It may well be that if the pitch oscillator board is replaced with a good one, giving better linearity and resolution, then the software could be changed so the integration time is reduced, and the  extreme latency could thereby be reduced to more acceptable levels - But there is absolutely no point in hiding issues like this - As can be seen, its been picked up! Both by engineers and musicians.. There is no point in telling lies or hiding grim truths - be this latency or linearity or CV out, sophisticated users WILL notice and get pissed off and return units and avoid buying ANYTHING made my said company as a result of loss of trust! - The impact on the core market could be bigger than any revenue gained from selling this toy!

Fred.

My major concern with any theremin configuration is the overall latency.  A 15ms latency "out of the box" is way too high to play even the slowest music.  By the time one adds in the latency caused by digital devices (laptops, etc) and the distance to speakers this would be unplayable.

The autotune feature, to me, is akin to adding frets to a fretless bass.  After all, fretted basses are available.

The same with the animoog -- the animoog is easily played with a computer and a keyboard controller.  Why would one want to record or perform live on an animoog via an antenna when a keyboard is much more precise?

Having said this, I would be interested in the Theremini if it was low-latency.  The autotune could be exploited such that some key notes (i.e., drones) would be autotuned but the rest of the texture would be played without autotune.

Next time I am in Asheville I hope to test-drive the Theremini.  I am more interested in it as a "new gestural-controlled instrument" than a replacement for my theremins.

At the Theremini's price-point, one cannot expect a highly-playable instrument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law_of_business_balance

"Ilya - Great work producing that schematic ! ... This looks to me like confirmation that the issues Dewster found re linearity are likely to be the instrument to blame and not a grounding issue.. Extremely low antenna voltage simply doesnt give good far-field sensitivity and tends to compress the near field from my experience.. The antenna inductor shown IS NOT a series eq inductor, its simply a ferrite HF suppressor, and will not elevate the antenna voltage or provide any linearization."  - FredM

Yes Ilya, that's great work!

And as you point out Fred, this is a low antenna voltage swing oscillator, which is why they are performing so much averaging / filtering in the DSP, and why the pitch field is so compressed.

"At the Theremini's price-point, one cannot expect a highly-playable instrument."  - kkissinger

There's a lot more in a Theremini than an EW, so I respectfully disagree - with the same or less cost and the right engineering the Theremini could have killed.  The issue appears to be that there just isn't anyone left at Moog who really knows Theremins like Moog did.  Moog (Inc.) could have picked livio's oscillator (or even my oscillator: take my oscillator - please;-), which (with the proper processing) would have allowed them to sidestep these crippling problems.  Everything in a digital design flows from the choice and design of the oscillator (which I why I've been on a wild oscillator hunt for a couple of years) and their poor choice is pretty telling.  IMO they (perhaps arbitrarily or unknowingly - the circuit in Ilya's schematic was certainly one of the first circuits I looked at) picked a pig and ended up having to put a heavy layer of lipstick on it.  And the lack of ESD protection is mystifying.

That very same oscillator board could have easily had livio's oscillator, with no increase in cost or fiddling at the factory.  I'm seeing new work for Thierry's cottage industry.  Too bad an oscillator swap likely wouldn't fix the latency.