Control voltages (CV's) and Synth stuff - possibly related to Theremini

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PLEASE NOTE:

I am not "servicing" or responding to any comments on this thread - I am NOT willing to give any help or advice or assistance on ANY Moog Theremini related matter, and believe this thread was a waste of time and is not worth reading other than for "education".

IMO, the Theremini is not worth modifying or correcting, the CV circuits given here wont fix the core problems even if I got the theory right (and there's no certainty that I did).

Fred Mundell. Aug 2014.

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WARNING!  MASSIVE  DOUBT  AND  UNCERTAINTY  APPLIES  TO   EVERYTHING  PRESENTED   IN   THIS   POST !!

In the Theremini Review thread, some heavy discussion about CV's (for pitch control) has occurred - I presented a brief "CV tutorial" there which I am now moving here (see next posting - Oh ell! I did CTL-X to copy it, then went and copied a link - So I lost tat post.. Heres a link to Wiki instead..  )-8 .. I think this subject is of extremely limited interest to most thereminists, so wanted to move that discussion so that the "review" thread doesnt get hijacked even more.

I have a hypothetically possible "explanation" for some of the weird stuff people seem to be seeing and Moog seem to be saying (see posts on Theremini Review thread from here) - but this is pure hypothesis based on observations I have not witnessed, and which might be misguided.

The clues upon which this hypothesis is based have been gleaned from somewhat abstract (and frankly unbelievable) postings by synthguy and a quoted email from Moog..

From Moog: "It runs an output of 0-10V, but it is not necessarily following the internal pitch of the Theremini itself."

It was the "not necessarily" which really bugged me about this - this hypothesis is the only one I can find where, under one condition (and one only) the theremini MIGHT track the pitch at 1V/Octave.

then synthguys "It should have been obvious from the first crude measurements I made, showing a two octave spread giving 2.5 per octave @5V. That means each octave increases 2.5 volts."

Well, thanks synthguy - Your "It should have been obvious" is actually really funny, LOL ;-) but the clincher was the "Changing the low and high note range will "tune" the scaling. Setting the low note to the lowest setting and the high note to A#8 will get very close to 1V/Oct (but not quite perfect)."... Hmmm .. I wouldnt even call 1.1V "close to perfect" let alone something 'round 1.4V, but I suppose we have different ideas about "perfection" ;-) LOL

Whatever, without your observations, I would never have dreamed that this bizarre scheme would have been implemented by anyone, let alone Moog... If this really is whats going on, then I am between manic laughter post-traumatic-shock! ;-)

----------------------------

The hypothesis is this:

The CV output from the theremini tracks the theremini pitch, but does so in a manner completely (and IMO bizarrely) different to any CV implementation ever seen before - I suspect that if the hypothesis is true, the CV was implemented by an utter incompetent.. But anyway -

Imagine that the number of semitones set in the playing field (note Range, high note to low note) is divided into the selected CV output voltage - so lets say one set the low note at A1 and the high note at A5, and one selected 5V output.. If my (unlikely) hypothesis is correct, then when A1 was playing, the CV would be 0V, and when A5 was playing, the CV would be 5V.. If all the semitones and octaves were equally spaced within this 5V span, then, under these conditions (5 octaves in 5V) and ONLY under these conditions, one would get 1V/Octave output.

It gets more complicated ;-)

Lets say we set low note to D2 and high note to D6, and got 0V for D2 and 5V for D6 - We would still be getting 1V/Octave, but would need to re-tune our synth to get it to play the same pitch as our Theremini.

The generally accepted (1V/Octave) keyboard CVs are as follows:

Key:        A0  A1   A2   A3   A4   A5

Voltage:   0    1     2     3     4     5

And one adds / subtracts voltages into 1V/Octave synths or modules (independently or globally) to tune them or shift their frequencies etc - Adding 1V increases the frequency (pitch) by one octave, subtracting 1V decreases pitch by 1 octave, Adding / subtracting 83.333mV raises / lowers pitch by 1 semitone, Adding / subtracting 0.83mV raises / lowers pitch by 1 cent.

So one can re-tune quite simply by having a box of some kind that adds/subtracts 1V increments for octaves and 83.333mV increments for semitones.. Most VCO's have tuning controls to allow at least +/- 1 octave of adjustment, so getting a 5V 1V/Octave CV from the theremini one should be able to at least track the note, even if one cannot shift the VCO to the right octave.

Less than 5 octaves:

What happens if one wants to play less than 5 octaves ? Say you set low note to A1 and high note to A4 (3 octaves) .. A1 would be 0V, A3 would be 5V, so each octave would output 1.6666V .. To get 1V/Octave you would need to reduce (divide) the 1.6666 by 1, giving a multiplicand of 0.6

This is fairly easy with a couple of resistors and could be added to our box.. But this box is starting to get a bit hairy.. but we will get back to that...

More than 5 octaves:

Lets say you had 6 octaves in 5 volts - each octave would be 0.8333V, and the output would need to be amplified to bring it up to 1V/Octave.

Using the 10V output:

Its not possible to ever get 1V/Octave directly from the 10V output, the closest one could get is 1.4285V/Octave when 7 octaves were selected.. so this would need to be attenuated..

IF (and its an EXTREMELY BIG IF!) the above guess as to whats going on is correct, then a reasonably simple box could be constructed to interface the theremini to 1V/Octave equipment - here is a brief overview:

1:) A 12 way rotary selector switch to set the key (offset) - this would require precision resistors at least.

2.) A 12 way rotary switch to add 6 octaves in 1/2 octave steps.

The above would allow one to tune the synth to frequency of the lowest theremini note without extensive twiddling with the synths tuning controls, but wouldnt deal with correcting the theremini output and making it 1V/Octave.

To get 1V/Octave, one would need to limit your 'span' to 1/2 octave steps (as in, select only 3, 3.5, 4, 4.5.... 7 octaves between lowest and highest notes -- You could have finer increments, even down to semitones, but would need a much more complicated, probably digital* box to do this)

Drive the output at 10V, and you would need another 12 way rotary switch to select the number of octaves you are playing. This selector switch would switch in the required attenuation to convert the output voltage to 1V/Octave.

Below is a table of required multipliers (all <1 so therefore attenuators or potential dividers - probably just a resistor and trimmer resistor for each):

Listed for 10V output - Octave 'span', output voltage per octave, multiplier required to give 1V/Octave

 

7	1.428571	0.700
6.5	1.538462	0.650
6	1.666667	0.600
5.5	1.818182	0.550
5	2	0.500
4.5	2.222222	0.450
4	2.5	0.400
3.5	2.857143	0.350
3	3.333333	0.300

 

* An all-in-one digital box with a display corresponding to the theremini display (low note / high note) would enable the CV to be correctly converted to 1V/Octave for any selected values, and provide the required attenuation and offset - It wouldn't require that much work, as one could use DAC's and MDACs to do the job - It could probably be done with a PSoC .

But the above fact is what makes me doubt this hypothesis - because EVERYTHING required to do this simple conversion MUST already be inside the theremini - So Why did (if they did) Moog not implement it ??

However, if this hypothesis is correct, I can fix the problem!

Fred.

I tidied up the tables..

 

	CV Span 10V				Required
					Multiplier
			V out		For
	Octaves		/ Octave		1V/Octave
	7		1.428571		0.7
	6.5		1.538462		0.65
	6		1.666667		0.6
	5.5		1.818182		0.55
	5		2		0.5
	4.5		2.222222		0.45
	4		2.5		0.4
	3.5		2.857143		0.35
	3		3.333333		0.3

 

( 0.08333 Volts/Semitone = 1V/Octave.. 84.167mV/st to 82.5mV/st for +/- 1 cent accuracy)

	With 10V Full-Scale Output
						Multiplier
	#	#	V/	V/		for
	Semitones	octaves	Semitone	Octave		1V/Octave
	24	2.00	0.4167	5.0000		0.2000
	25	2.08	0.4000	4.8000		0.2083
	26	2.17	0.3846	4.6154		0.2167
	27	2.25	0.3704	4.4444		0.2250
	28	2.33	0.3571	4.2857		0.2333
	29	2.42	0.3448	4.1379		0.2417
	30	2.50	0.3333	4.0000		0.2500
	31	2.58	0.3226	3.8710		0.2583
	32	2.67	0.3125	3.7500		0.2667
	33	2.75	0.3030	3.6364		0.2750
	34	2.83	0.2941	3.5294		0.2833
	35	2.92	0.2857	3.4286		0.2917
	36	3.00	0.2778	3.3333		0.3000
	37	3.08	0.2703	3.2432		0.3083
	38	3.17	0.2632	3.1579		0.3167
	39	3.25	0.2564	3.0769		0.3250
	40	3.33	0.2500	3.0000		0.3333
	41	3.42	0.2439	2.9268		0.3417
	42	3.50	0.2381	2.8571		0.3500
	43	3.58	0.2326	2.7907		0.3583
	44	3.67	0.2273	2.7273		0.3667
	45	3.75	0.2222	2.6667		0.3750
	46	3.83	0.2174	2.6087		0.3833
	47	3.92	0.2128	2.5532		0.3917
	48	4.00	0.2083	2.5000		0.4000
	49	4.08	0.2041	2.4490		0.4083
	50	4.17	0.2000	2.4000		0.4167
	51	4.25	0.1961	2.3529		0.4250
	52	4.33	0.1923	2.3077		0.4333
	53	4.42	0.1887	2.2642		0.4417
	54	4.50	0.1852	2.2222		0.4500
	55	4.58	0.1818	2.1818		0.4583
	56	4.67	0.1786	2.1429		0.4667
	57	4.75	0.1754	2.1053		0.4750
	58	4.83	0.1724	2.0690		0.4833
	59	4.92	0.1695	2.0339		0.4917
	60	5.00	0.1667	2.0000		0.5000
	61	5.08	0.1639	1.9672		0.5083
	62	5.17	0.1613	1.9355		0.5167
	63	5.25	0.1587	1.9048		0.5250
	64	5.33	0.1563	1.8750		0.5333
	65	5.42	0.1538	1.8462		0.5417
	66	5.50	0.1515	1.8182		0.5500
	67	5.58	0.1493	1.7910		0.5583
	68	5.67	0.1471	1.7647		0.5667
	69	5.75	0.1449	1.7391		0.5750
	70	5.83	0.1429	1.7143		0.5833
	71	5.92	0.1408	1.6901		0.5917
	72	6.00	0.1389	1.6667		0.6000
	73	6.08	0.1370	1.6438		0.6083
	74	6.17	0.1351	1.6216		0.6167
	75	6.25	0.1333	1.6000		0.6250
	76	6.33	0.1316	1.5789		0.6333
	77	6.42	0.1299	1.5584		0.6417
	78	6.50	0.1282	1.5385		0.6500
	79	6.58	0.1266	1.5190		0.6583
	80	6.67	0.1250	1.5000		0.6667
	81	6.75	0.1235	1.4815		0.6750
	82	6.83	0.1220	1.4634		0.6833
	83	6.92	0.1205	1.4458		0.6917
	84	7.00	0.1190	1.4286		0.7000

 

 <EDIT> Looking at the above figures, even making a external box to allow entering the low + high note and using these to rescale the CV isn't going to be easy - I think it will require better than an 8 bit MDAC to perform the analogue division accurately enough - probably needs 10 bits (theres only 8 bit MDACs on PSoC, and other MCU's dont even have this) - Using PSoC I would probably use the DAC's for the offset, and drive off-chip digital potentiometers for the division.... Ugh...!

One really does need to limit the span to increments of 1/2 octaves to keep things "simple".. A rotary switch with resistors/trimmers or a 8 bit MDAC would achieve this.

The easiest would be to limit the span to one octaves steps, that way you could set both low and high notes at the same key on the theremini, say C1 to C4, have one switch on the box to set this key (C), one switch to set the octave span (3), one switch to set the low note octave (1).

- or set the key and octave to whatever you want, they will still track musically at the interval you set - the only thing that must be set correctly in order to get 1V/Octave is the octave span.

ALL the above is based ENTIRELY on a hypothesis about the theremini's CV output which HAS NOT BEEN CONFIRMED!!!

WARNING!  MASSIVE  DOUBT  AND  UNCERTAINTY  APPLIES  TO   EVERYTHING  PRESENTED   IN   THIS   POST !!!

Implications IF the above hypothesis is correct:

Lets say the above hypothesis is correct - What use is the (unmodified / raw)  CV for anything?

Well... Over the playing zone, you have control of a CV that goes from 0 to 5V, or 0 to 10V.. It will have the same linearity (or lack thereof ;-) that the pitch has.. Changing the low and high notes wont make any difference to the output voltage - it goes from 0 to 5 or 0 to 10, that's it.

Anything you drive from this CV directly (MoogerFooger, filters, whatever) if 1V/Octave will sweep either 5 octaves or 10 octaves..

So it could be used to make wind and surf noises if it CV'ed a VCF driven with white noise, or it could be used as an independent means of "playing" a VCF or even a synth, if you stuck to 5 or 10 octave span and kept the theremini silent (or set 5V and the theremini for 5 octaves and tuned the synth to it).

To use the theremini audio output and simultaneously drive a synth, one could just stick to 5V and 5 Octaves (which is probably quite a good span anyway) and use the synth tuning to get them to the same (or musically related) notes.

Above is only valid IF the CV is actually derived from the theremini audio, OR the theremini audio us derived from the same data used by the CV - as in, they track each other accurately.

Fred.

 

On this post I am going to look at conflicting "statements" and try to impose some "order" on them - Some however cannot be reconciled, and must be mutually exclusive and therefore incorrect:

1a.) I replied the following to synthguy:

"I really dont know what the truth is. You say that when pitch correction is turned on, the CV tracks this - Moog says that this isnt implemented."

I cannot find where I got this from - I think I may have been confusing the MIDI output with the CV output.

1b.)

The Theremini Manual (Page 19 - CV OUT CONTINUED) details the "APPLY PITCH CORRECTION" function - "Use the PRESETS knob to select whether the current Pitch Correction setting is applied to the Control Voltage output, or if it is not. Press the SETUP button to exit the MIDI CV SETUP Menu."

So, if the manual is to be believed, pitch correction CAN BE applied to the CV out, as synthguy said.

This brings us to the first major conflict:

2a.)

Moog, in an email to xtheremin8, stated :"The Theremini CV out is not (currently) designed for pitch control either. It runs an output of 0-10V, but it is not necessarily following the internal pitch of the Theremini itself."

It was the "is not (currently) designed for pitch control " which is the conflict that's amplified if the pitch correction CAN BE applied to the CV out as stated in the manual - both statements CANNOT be true, only one can be.

2b.) the above is further compounded in the email by the words "It runs an output of 0-10V, but it is not necessarily following the internal pitch of the Theremini itself."

2c.) Lets look a bit at this conflict - IF the CV out does not track theremini pitch, IF CV out was not designed for pitch control, then what point would there be in having the option to apply pitch correction to the CV OUT ?

The fundamental question - the core of the whole CV issue - is this .. Does the CV relate in any usable way to theremini pitch (as implied by the manual) or was the CV REALLY not designed for pitch control (as stated in the email) ?  

Weighing the probabilities, I would think that the email is more likely to be wrong, and that the manual is more likely to be right (or closer to the truth)... To me, it is clear that the intent was to have the CV tracking the theremini pitch (the menu option to have CV auto-tuned makes no sense if this was not the case) even if this isnt working correctly at this time.

We havent even touched on the specification of the CV is (if it does track the pitch) or how useful this might be - but you will have seen my thoughts and hypothesis about that in the prior posts here.

3.) Making the above assumption (CV tracks theremini pitch) all that remains is the question of the specification of this CV output.

There are only two CV standards that have been used on synthesisers and usable CV theremins (The PAiA Theremax "CV output" doesn't track anything - but then neither do their keyboards or synths ;-)   for pitch control - these are V/Octave and V/Hz. Moog has NEVER used V/Hz on any of its products, and (I believe) all manufacturers of CV Synths have now gone over to V/Octave.. It would be real strange if Moog had gone to V/Hz with the theremini...

But even V/Hz is not as strange (or as asinine) as what it seems they may have done!

I do note, however, that there isnt a single reference to V/Octave that I can find, anywhere in the theremini manual - I have expressed my thoughts (that when buying a product from Moog, which has a CV Out or in, the customer has the RIGHT to expect this to conform to Moogs 1V/Octave standard, even if this is not stated) on the Theremini forum, and will refrain from going into another rant!

;-)

Fred.

OT (even for this thread! ;-)

A new CV standard? (this is a completely absurd thought - a fiction.. I hope... ;-)

The idea of compressing all the playing octaves / notes into a fixed size 'window' perhaps has some merit if implemented fully..

Lets say one has 10V available, but only ever output 3 octaves of CV @1V/Octave - One would only ever use 3V of the available 10.

IF one was to pack these 3 octaves into 10V (raise the CV to 3.333V/Octave) AND tell the receiving device the scaling factor, one would get proportionally less noise interference on any connecting cable - Each time you changed the "packing factor" you would simultaneously need to transmit a message to the receiver detailing the number of intervals (semitones) packed into the voltage, and the offset (lowest interval) so that the receiver could correctly reconstruct the data.

The "command message" detailing packing and offset could be digital - perhaps even MIDI, and would only need to be sent when the range / tuning of the master was changed.

But every synth or module that received this CV would need to also receive this digital data - it would not be compatible with anything on the market at this time. A small in-line converter could be made that received both the scaled CV and control message (or it might be possible to transmit the control message in some embedded form within the CV signal, in which case the converter could possibly be built into a jack plug) so that it could output standard 1V/Octave into standard equipment.

It would be the most absurd pointless complication of the elegant 1V/Octave scheme that one could imagine - But it would allow the promoter to sell "exclusive" equipment to utilize this standard, and sell interfaces to make their theremini or whatever compatible with standard equipment.

IF my hypothesis regarding the CV coming from the theremini is correct, this is exactly what Moog has implemented - Except that they haven't provided the essential "command message" side of the idea ;-)

Fred.

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PLEASE NOTE:

I am not "servicing" or responding to any comments on this thread - I am NOT willing to give any help or advice or assistance on ANY Moog Theremini related matter, and believe this thread was a waste of time and is not worth reading other than for "education".

IMO, the Theremini is not worth modifying or correcting, the CV circuits given here wont fix the core problems even if I got the theory right (and there's no certainty that I did).

Fred Mundell. Aug 2014.

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Here are some sketches I did while examining feasibility of a CV correction box. Note, this may be complete BS and only has a hope if my hypothesis correct. (note - there should be a resistor between +1V and  G# - mistake! ;-)

.. Not that I think anyone is really interested though... ;-)

This is "designed" for 10V CV output, and (if it works) will only work if low note and high note are at the same key (see update in first post on this thread).

OCTAVE OFFSET: Sets the octave played by the external equipment regardless of what octave the lowest note on the theremini is set to. If the theremini lowest note is set to C2, setting this to 2 will play external synth to the same octave, setting it to 1 will play external synth an octave lower, setting it to 3 will play external synth an octave higher.

KEY OFFSET: Sets the key that is played when the theremini is playing its lowest key.

CV ATTENUATOR: The setting of this will be critical - If the span between the theremini's lowest and highest notes is 2 octaves, this must be set to 2 (its lowest setting) . Theremini notes (lowest and highest) must always be set full octaves apart (A1 to A4, C2 to C7 etc) and the span (C7-C2 = 5) set on this control.

 

 

MISTAKE! ANOTHER RESISTOR REQUIRED BETWEEN +1V REFERENCE AND THE REST OF THE CIRCUIT (G#  TERMINAL ON KEY OFFSET SELECTOR SWITCH and other resistors in potential divider ) !

Fred.

Really dont know whats driving me to waste my time on this - It almost feels like there's an angry Bob compelling me from the "other side" LOL ;-)

fred,

all the "mitigating evidences",your honour, ;-) are in my photo album posted. the sketch was between me and the tech who did the trimpot, because i can't solder smd very good. dam small for old schoolers, and he wanted to know first how i measured, so i sent him that sketch. it's self explaining, isn'tnit? if you like i could open it up one day and take a close-up of that battlefield!  my sketch is obviously really a crude setup ! the scope pictures are taken from my sequencers output. yes, the sequences are real fast stepped! if it would go faster i could maybe travel in time. do'h!  i didn't had to send these pictures, i explainded it with the steps on a email or two. they told me to calibrate the sequencer. yessir. i after-tested my oscillators to be sure with a arturia beat step, and a qunexus, both cv out 1v/oct and they oscillate where theyre supposed to. no earbleeding.they're fine. so it can't be my synth,can it? i can hardly express my disapointment about it. but i like that muffly moog sound somewhat. so what?  they told ma also that the phatty cv input was intented  for the exaltated expression pedalist  handwaver spastics whatever! (sorry for that gearslutsness.) but it made me see clearer. the synth market like korg etc go small and affordable...so let's hope for a united digitalization and open sourced  thereminization of the world !  now i need something stronger to come down...

Hi Dani,

Yeh, that one interesting configuration! ;-) Ok, on their own, scope's cannot be relied on to accurately determine voltage step size, but you have a meter to confirm the readings!

Did you know that the sort of staircase waveform you are generating can be produced by mixing two ramp waveforms? one slow rising ramp covering the number of intervals you want to step, and a faster falling ramp with amplitude of each interval step.. mix these and you get a staircase, and can change the amplitudes and frequencies to get some really wonderful sequences!

If you have a S+H in circuit, and clock this at a different frequency, you can fiddle about and get repeatable sequences by feeding the staircase into it - Oh, its such fun! ;-) ... Some people just have this gift of being able to twiddle the knobs right in real-time, and add a voltage from a keyboard (play the keyboard) and get into Tangerine Dream territory !

But its a bit like the theremin - it doesn't just happen.. The real masters are those who can recreate the same (or similar - it can never be the same) performance repeatedly - I never got to this level ;-)

IMO, we got lost.... We got polyphony, we got precise arpaggiators and digital sequencers (rather than ones with 48 knobs and switches we could twiddle ;-) , we got MIDI, we got computers, we got "workstations" and it became work.

Fred.

Chill out time!  Real Moog and Mellotron - this is how synths should sound! ;-)

I assisted the synth technical aspects of concert by Camel in Guilford back in 197(4)? - loads of VC Mono synths, and sequencers .. One of the roadies commented to me - "I dont know why you bother plugging all those cables in and checking everything - they only ever play those 3 keyboards"  pointing to the master units!

This was pre-MIDI, everything was CV, 1V/Octave - the spaghetti carried CV's and trig from a few keyboards to the stack of slaved keyboards, and from analogue sequencers to the synths.. One moderate modular etc - I never thought about it - but to the guys who didnt understand what was going on, and who were humping all this kit to every performance, it was all just for show! -

kind of wonder how many of the audience thought the same thing! LOL ;-0)

Also starting to wonder if that roadie found his way to Moog and got employed as a designer... Nah, unlikely, he'd be about the same age as me.. ;-)

But somehow it seems that the purpose of the CV spaghetti has been forgotten, that the critical nature, the 10mV tolerance on all the wires isn't understood. None of the stuff which gave birth to the music which launched modern synthesis, the ELP masterpieces, Switched on Bach, Tomita, Tangerine Dream, Pink Floyd, Rick Wakeman - NONE of this music would have been created or could have been created if CV had been so sloppily implemented as it is today (at least by one company I wont name again)!

SHAME!!! 

Oh, we got MIDI now.. But MIDI has latency, it has defined intervals, its no use for connecting analogue modules together! - For monophonic applications, for freedom, for theremins and continuously variable pitch, MIDI is almost useless! - Go digital or stay analogue but dont pick the worst of both worlds and combine these!!!! Grrrrr! - MIDI is aging and almost as old now as CV, if digital control is the path they want to go for instruments like theremins and analogue synths, they better use one of the faster Musical Instrument Digital Protocols... But untill such time, DONT SCREW WITH THE TRIED AND TESTED AND ESTABLISHED CV SYSTEM!!!

oh fred,

thanks for posting god old soothing synth sound. my cd just stopped playing "music for films" by brian eno. it's also great to see what kind of concerts, obviously a tv show, were transmissioned by german tv. but that was the hot shit back then. my brother was totaly into this then and had some records, so it resonates my childhood.  silver apples "oscillations" reverbes like a mantra. mostly when trying to understand all these older theremin synth related tech-articles and infos.

every nun needs a synth..today even me can play on ems!  thanks to ipad.  or  that monster-moog-vst from arturia for many money. thanks to science, programming, and simplifying al into 1and 0 . just thinkin:(The Who were wrong: we all got fooled again. also the plasticspooner generation, like me. and my daughters generation as well. my darkest thought: "emp" and the according reset. but that's really really dark and horrible of course. but would clearify our entangelements (in that electronic occultism.)

luckily, i met bruno spoerri, a swiss computer sound jazz pioneer, he inspired me a lot. he does great stuff with synths since back then. today  with devices sensoring him and translating certain moving into music. max based.it's cool to watch and also fun to listen. it looks like he's doing thai-chi in front of a ticket machine!  but still some spaghetti.. ah me feel hungry.

you're right we are still monkeys. in suits.

and thanks for the s&h tip. never thought of that. it's timing..the sequencer is a mfos 10step, but i wanted the speed in a wider range than ray wilsons design allowed. now it could act also as an oscillator!!...the leds flash so fast...hihi...wilsons design are so cool and give clear insight whats a synt. i learned a lot.and it works for my purpose and purse. tweedeling the knops is like playing wrong tunes. considering this: better  with the trousers down already from start. because it will happen anyway sooner or later: uups sorry...i take pictures of a cool sounding, and even then it's different. but i'm different too. you can't swim twice in the same river. it's fact.

but now more of that tangerine dream.

dani

 

 

"you can't swim twice in the same river. it's fact."

Sure is! ;-)

- or at least it is within our perceptions of time and space.. One could of course say that every moment is eternal, that everything that was and everything that will be actually is - now -

The most boggling implication of relativity to me is that my "now" and some other entities "now" could be separated + or - by huge time difference depending on their distance and motion relative to me .. Some entity capable of looking at earth in their "now" could be seeing it thousands of years in our future, or thousands of years in our past - but our "now" would still be "now" .. and their "now" would still be "now".

When this dawned on me, I knew that determinism had to be scientifically inescapable - so I am back looking for some other paradigm! LOL ;-)

Fred.

fred,

haha, don't start with midi in this topic, please...the entire "hey we implemented-cv- but-don't-expect anything of it" shit gave me already the creeps. like the " but it goes to eleven" knob joke.  i'm off.