t-Vox Tour under atack

Posted: 8/25/2014 4:14:43 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

Hi Dewster,

I swing between utter frustration (and sometimes contempt) at the matters you raise, and a curiosity about whats really underpinning the "mysteries". To me, there are mysteries - The Tvox highlights one of these, and actually makes the whole issue of "ideal linearity" even more mysterious.. If I had never played with (I wont say on ;-) a Tvox, I would probably be thinking it was all subjective BS - that the only reason folks believed it was great was because Lydia (who could play anything, except probably a theremini ;-) had made it her primary instrument.

But having played with the Tvox, I know it was by far the most comfortable instrument I have ever played - I was quite new to the theremin when I first played it, but compared to every other theremin I had played before and every one I have played since, it was, for ME, hugely more 'fluid' and controllable and 'natural' and playable than any other - and this feeling has been confirmed every subsequent time I played it... In Lydia's classes, when I couldn't hog the Tvox, I couldn't play! - The E-Pro was playable in the bass registers, but no where near as nice for me as the Tvox, I never got on with the EW (I found Gordon's Enkelaar more playable) - (must admit though that after about a month of fiddling with the EW board and doing modifications, its starting to feel ok to me now)

I assumed the Tvox was the most linear because I found it easiest to play.. Couldn't understand why I found the EW so bad when I knew it had better linearity than the Enkelaar...

So I am back at square one - Something makes the Tvox (for me) great - and if its not linearity (whether linear in the musical / mathematical sense, or linear as in some curve that makes it comfortable and playable to me) then what is it?

In experimenting, I have found that linearity does seem to make theremins more playable, and certainly gross non-linearity makes them unplayable - but there's something more to it I think .. I dont know what this something is, and worse, if I find this "something" to suit me, dont know if it would suit anyone else!

Which is one reason I have been pursuing user adjustable 'linearity' control, or perhaps several user presets to allow curve shaping.

"t's the endless thicket of mysterious circuitry with associated (reported / subjective) holy grail performance that makes Theremin research so needlessly difficult (and, conveniently for sellers, sustains unreasonably high prices in the used market - and, conveniently for buyers, sustains unreasonably high levels of ownership status). " - Dewster

Yes, it does do all of those unfortunate things - and some (much?) of the above is probably BS - but given the state of the art, its no surprise. If, like me, you find ONE theremin that suits you (regardless of whether others find the same or not) and you can only get this theremin on the second hand market at an high price, you have no choice. I would never (other than to examine and re-sell) buy an E-Pro, but based on personal experience, if I saw myself as aspiring to theremin mastery, I would do anything possible to own a Tvox.

As an engineer / theremin developer, I want to know WHY I love the "feel" of the Tvox - and why others love their Epro or whatever .. If I knew this and was able to give a new theremin whatever 'feel' the player wanted, that would be one big step forward ( sound is the other big step IMO).

But I am not sure that the answers will be available purely from looking at schematics and doing the kind of analysis available to us on simulators - Oh, the more information we can acquire the better, but I think it probably comes down to the physics and biology and neurology of the player as to what their ideal theremin is than can be derived from analysis of the theremin.

(I suppose the above sort of makes sense if we stop thinking about the theremin as the box with antennas on it, and think about it as a circuit encompassing a complex changing 'control' capacitor - the performance of this circuit will almost entirely depend on the nature of this capacitor - one circuit may be better suited to one particular complex capacitor and another to a differently constructed complex capacitor.. the players are all differently constructed complex capacitors and sure - we can design the circuit to best cater for the 'mean' performance of these capacitors, but such a circuit may not be optimum for any specific complex capacitor..

Make a circuit which can be adjusted by the complex capacitor so that it performs in an optimum way for them, and one then only has the issue of whether the sound coming out is optimum for the requirements - Make this sound adequately adjustable, and you may have an ideal theremin for everyone! )

And if / when that happens, then things change.. Then one doesn't need to buy some second hand theremin and obtain a mortgage to fund it just because you want something that suits your requirements - you can still buy these for "ownership status" and prices will probably remain high for this reason - but you wont need to.

Fred.

(I am at least an extremely complex capacitor - I condense, therefore I am ;-)

condenser - another (old) name for capacitor

Posted: 8/25/2014 5:10:31 PM
ILYA

From: Theremin Motherland

Joined: 11/13/2005

"is that Lambda diode oscillator self-starting?" -- dewster

Yes, almost all over the area of the negative resistance (I meant the position of operating point).
Excluding the small region near 2-nd (final) inflection point (but at this point circuit has the maximal voltage swing).
 


It's believed that the center of falling segment is an optimal point.

"It seems Russian Theremin oscillators often use transformers to boost antenna voltage swing? I used to think that was a good way to go, but the capacitance between windings can be an issue, and asymmetrical capacitance gives similar voltage boost without complex inductors" -

Some topologies of oscillator require the path for DC.

Posted: 8/25/2014 5:11:42 PM
ILYA

From: Theremin Motherland

Joined: 11/13/2005

I have asked Katsumi Nishikawa about transistor labels.
He emailed me the next hand drawn picture:


Definitely, it's not Russian types. I'm not expert in European components, maybe someone can identify these transistors? (although, in general, it is not so important)

Posted: 8/25/2014 5:29:34 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

Oh my!

That lambda curve just gave me an idea - completely OT so I wont expand it much here... But if one had a ramp waveform, and fed it into a circuit employing the lambda diode, then if the ramp went from 0 to 6V you would get a shaped repetitive waveform out like that curve..

Increase the ramp voltage, and you would change the PW of this waveform..

Put the ramp into a LPF before the lambda, and one could get PW to vary with frequency, having higher harmonics as frequency goes lower - could easily diode mix a 0-6V ramp with a say 0-12V version of the same ramp going through a LPF, and feed this to the lambda.

Yeah - simple dynamic change of harmonics which could approximate the changing waveform found due to oscillator synchronization at the low end - the sort of mechanism for changing harmonics that I have been creating all sorts of complex circuits to achieve!

;-)

Fred. 

Actually, all sorts of waveforms could be possible including frequency doubling using triangle waves....

I have done a quick set of simulations and drafted a .pdf you can get here.

 

Posted: 9/12/2014 4:14:51 PM
dewster

From: Northern NJ, USA

Joined: 2/17/2012

Not to be intentionally contentious, but after spicing the T-Vox lambda diode oscillator (though only the drive side of the transformer) I can't say that I'm blown away.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/fac9uca8ew0dcot/lambda_diode_osc_2014-08-28.asc

I know these things are difficult to tell from simulation, and I probably haven't played with it enough yet, but it appears to be self-starting only if the supply voltage is low.  The supply current is fairly low, but the drive is somewhat non-sinusoidal (using 2N3820 and MPF102 models).  And the need for a PFET is problematic (this could perhaps be replaced with a PNP but I haven't tried that).

My current preference is for single NFET drive where the input is differential and therefore somewhat separated from the drive - it's been my (admittedly fairly limited) experience that this eliminates starting issues.

Much like in ham VFO circuits, the presence of a transformer gives the opportunity to use lower impedance sensing in the oscillator.  If I were designing a Theremin oscillator that employed a transformer I'd endeavor to use bipolar transistors.

Posted: 9/12/2014 4:29:10 PM
dewster

From: Northern NJ, USA

Joined: 2/17/2012

"In experimenting, I have found that linearity does seem to make theremins more playable, and certainly gross non-linearity makes them unplayable - but there's something more to it I think .. I dont know what this something is, and worse, if I find this "something" to suit me, dont know if it would suit anyone else!"  - FredM

Particularly after my Theremini experience it really seems to me that linearity is linearity.  That said, there may be differing ways that various players sense it (with finger, hand, arm, or body movements - finger movements are something I didn't take into account when gathering my hand/antenna capacitance data which may or may not be an issue) so perhaps some kind of adjustment is in order, but I'm not sure what form that would take.  Once I have the heterodyning period measuring thing up and running I'll perhaps have more insight into this issue.

Posted: 9/12/2014 8:15:21 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

Hi Dewster,

Oh, I completely agree that linearity is important.. but I think your "Particularly after my Theremini experience it really seems to me that linearity is linearity. " is a reaction to "gross non-linearity [which] makes them unplayable"


Really bad toys or theremins are instantly recognized if one has played any other [real] theremin musically, but outside of this 'toy' class of crap, there are playable instruments  which have different feels - and some folks get on better with some of these than others I think.

But I dont know for sure - all I know for sure is that I found some theremins easier to play than others, and that some of those (particularly the Tvox, which I find easiest) are a lot less difficult (for me) than others like the E-Pro, which have "better" linearity.

I am a bit inclined to thinking that its the bass end which is most important for me - I mostly played in the mid to far field (not really a great fan of theremin treble) and so I wonder if for me its oscillator coupling that defines the 'shape' of the field which I like - Perhaps this is how I managed to get my H1's to a state where I (and some punters) enjoyed playing them and could play tunes.. The near field was probably lousy but I never noticed that, but I did add a twisted wire capacitor to each instrument and deliberately coupled the oscillators this way and this certainly made the bass more playable.. The PSoC muted the audio when VFO frequency exceeded Ref Frq, and had a damping TC on it, so this probably killed any 'stutter' - and the oscillators were buffered, so nasty intermodulation as occurs on the EW was eliminated.

But none of the above does anything to improve the near field.. That's where the series antenna resonator with correctly designed oscillator has, I think, the biggest effect.

Whatever - We will only know for sure when an adjustable field theremin appears, one without any distractions like long latency.. Then it will be real interesting to see if thereminists all choose linear, all choose some other curve, or have different tastes... I expect a bell curve with the peak being close to linear, but perhaps biased a bit towards stretching the bass and compressing the treble slightly.

Fred.

Posted: 9/12/2014 8:37:11 PM
FredM

From: Eastleigh, Hampshire, U.K. ................................... Fred Mundell. ................................... Electronics Engineer. (Primarily Analogue) .. CV Synths 1974-1980 .. Theremin developer 2007 to present .. soon to be Developing / Trading as WaveCrafter.com . ...................................

Joined: 12/7/2007

"but after spicing the T-Vox lambda diode oscillator (though only the drive side of the transformer) I can't say that I'm blown away." - Dewster

Yeah, its not that impressive - Certainly hopeless if this went straight to the antenna (which it doesn't).

But I do wonder about the effect of the antenna transformer, and particularly on whether the waveform changes much as the antenna C changes - There is something special about the Tvox to my ears - some quality that makes listening to it really enjoyable, and  IMO a musical richness particularly at low difference frequencies.. (How much of this is down to the fact that I am probably under Lydia's spell, well, I dont know... ;-)

I wonder whether there's tailored oscillator coupling going on which gives it bass end 'linearity' but also alters the HF wave shapes in a way that enhances the audio waveform..

Fred.

Posted: 10/25/2016 2:38:50 PM
Martel

From: Russia

Joined: 9/8/2016

I do not understand how it is possible in such a small circuit (ferrite frame itself because it is very small) can be wound many turns, what happens (to the antenna coil portion) 65 mH !! The same can not be ?!

........................................................................

Не понимаю, как можно в такой маленький контур (сам ферритовый каркас (тюречок) ведь очень мал) можно намотать столько витков, что получится (часть катушки к антенне) 65 мН !! Это же невозможно?!

Posted: 10/25/2016 11:36:11 PM
Thierry

From: Colmar, France

Joined: 12/31/2007

All depends on the Al value of the core material. And inductance per winding is a quadratic function. That means 2 x turns = 4 x inductance

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