Creating a theremin sample set

Hi Rich,

"Too many projects - too little time!"

I know that one! ;-)

I was actually surprised you managed to get such a 'nice' sound, and agree entirely with your "But having that vibrato in there is critical. "

But this, to me, is also the problem.. Because its Clara's vibrato! To use this in a theremin, one would need to inhibit the thereminists own vibrato.. Using it in a DAW one could possibly construct some pieces which applied Clara's musicality in a "suitable" setting.. But beyond that, I dont think it would be useful... And like all 'snapshots' it will eventually be completely abused or at least over-used.

And to me this is the conundrum - We want to hear that "classic" sound, but it is only just dawning on me that this "sound" doesn't in fact exist on its own - that the practical reality of the fact that the player actually forms part of the instrument, that they become a unique component of the theremin.. Well, its been words - an analogy to explain things if you like - I never fully embraced the fact that it is a critical truth.

I now understand that without Clara, there can never again be a Claramin - The instrument is a good theremin, and could be musical in the right hands, but the component that made it special has died and cannot be replaced.

I have spent a good part of 7 years seeking the mysteries of the classic theremins, but it was staring me in the face all the time - A good thereminist can take a crap instrument and get closer to that "authentic" sound than a crap thereminist could on a brilliant or even the most advanced future theremin capable of producing any waveform.

And this also exposes the flaw in my obsession to obtain a collection of samples from 'endangered' theremins - Yes, from a historic perspective, I think it has merit - But capturing these sounds with scientific precision isn't going to preserve anything of these instruments that's truly worth preserving - it isnt going to enable future thereminists to 'emulate' performances of past great thereminists.

In some ways this adds to the wonder of the theremin - it is a "Now" instrument perhaps more than any other, your theremin is a part of you and you are a part of it, and for better or worse, without you playing it its a different instrument.

Fred.

Yes some of this makes perfect sense but on the other hand the number of amazing sample libraries out there now is getting to be stunning and frankly I can't see that the theremin is much different from a violin in this regard. In fact, I would venture getting the theremin sound "right" is actually easier than getting a solo violin sound "right" (not that either is easy by any stretch of the imagination). In the hands of the people that really know how to create these libraries, I have no doubt they can come up with a sample set that few outside the professional realm would know are not samples. And there are many new techniques these newer libraries are using that add to the realism.

By the way, that's why the top sampling companies hire the best instrumentalists - to try and capture their greatness (even though a lot of times they are just playing single notes). Always struck me as a bit funny.

And of course you can make just a good a case that Rubinstein or Horowitz were more important to the sound of their playing than the piano (and on and one there). I bet these musicians also felt that they were an integral part of their instrument.

Most people have no idea today if what they are listening to is real or sampled (most haven't even been to an orchestral concert so how could they know?). It's nearly impossible to tell when you go to the movies what is what anymore. In 10 years time I truly believe there will be no one that can tell the difference as long as the musician using the samples really knows what they are doing. Theremin included (assuming anyone wants to create a professional theremin sample library). 

And by the way, (I'll take some flack here) I think the violin is a heck of a lot harder instrument to learn to play at the top professional level than a theremin (though I'm not sure there is an accepted standard for what the top professional level is there, the way there is for a violin). If you have a really good ear, I think you can learn how to play the theremin well. That does not apply to the violin. I think there is a lot more technique to learn there. The issue is that there are not that many people learning the theremin and there is basically no where to go once you learn it well (at least few places to go) and it has no true repertoire of its own, nor is anyone knocking down the doors to buy theremin music to listen to. That's three strikes against the poor instrument right off the bat (or is it four).

Thought provoking question of the day: Is the theremin really the hardest instrument to learn or is the novelty of not touching it adding to its aura of difficulty. Without pitch preview, I don't think anyone can truly hit notes on this instrument with unerring accuracy (but part of its charm is that it should not be an instrument of totally accuracy). Flexibility in pitch is part of what makes it what it is. The perfect thereminist should not be hitting notes perfectly, that would make them not perfect. That would sound wrong to me  (yes this instrument has many oxymoronic issues like that). Of course to a lesser extent, any string instrument has the same issues (but of course you touch those). You touch the crap out of them!

Anyway - who cares -  I'm hooked, and will do all I can to promote it and create some repertoire for it. End of rant.

Rich

rkram53 wrote: "Is the theremin really the hardest instrument to learn or is the novelty of not touching it adding to its aura of difficulty. Without pitch preview, I don't think anyone can truly hit notes on this instrument with unerring accuracy (but part of its charm is that it should not be an instrument of totally accuracy)."

I believe the novelty of "space control" adds to the myth that the theremin is EASY, not that it is difficult.

Even with a pitch preview, no one can hit notes on the theremin with unerring accuracy. We are all off pitch more or less all of the time. The art is in concealing it.

Yes, part of the theremin's charm is that it is not totally accurate. That, IMNSHO, is what gives it its uncanny "human" quality.

"The theremin is the most difficult of all musical instruments. It is much harder than the violin, which I played for years."    Clara Rockmore

"Coalport" - I can only hope I'll learn how to play half as well as you can! I know of no instrument as close to the human voice as the theremin - and by the way contrary to the silly claims that the theremin is the only instrument you don't touch to play - humans have been singing for thousands of years without touching themselves (well most of them).

But here's the $64,000 question. Was Clara a top professional violinist? Did she play moderately well and by comparison the theremin seemed so much more difficult because she never attained the level of a true world-class virtuoso? If Heifetz or Perlman started to play the theremin, do you think they would say "Man, this thing is impossible?". Maybe at first because it is so different. But I'm guessing after a bit they would say "hard but no harder than a violin". And I bet Perlman would be great at it.

To play at the top level, every instrument has it challenges and pitfalls. I'll let you know in a year if I change my mind as I've only been playing two months or so - so I'm still a "duffer".

Rich

P.S. (Don't mean to be sycophantic) Your playing in my mind is the most expressive of anyone out there. I've been trying to figure out why I think that. Technique is part of it, presentation also helps, but musicianship is much more than half the battle with this instrument. Well, with any instrument of course, but in my mind a lot more with the theremin because you have to translate "air" into music. The whole body really influences performance even though the basic body motion is minimal. How do you get a still body to create music of great passion? That to me is the biggest challenge I see of this instrument, not hitting notes. [Of course I'm still at the point where I'm just trying to play in tune for my life]

And I think if you are a good singer, that gives you a decided advantage with this instrument as when you are playing you are in effect singing with your hands, vocalizing through your body. (I'm not that great a singer and that worries me a bit).

it's not impossible... I cannot read music, the only other instrument I play is "voice" and I am only decent at it. I can play the theremin (I am ok at it). If I can play it, you can too. it takes lots of practice. An the best way to convey emotion through the theremin is playing like your hands are butterflies. think of your hands being your voice, you do not have to move much when you sing to pass emotions through it. The theremin is kind of the same...

Amethyste,

Yep. Practice, practice, practice.

Actually I'm not sure reading music is that much of a help with the theremin anyway. It's not like, hey, this is G, I have to put my finger here. Today it's here. Tomorrow it's there. It might even be here, here and there today. 

But I think it's not so much that your "hands are your voice" as "your voice is actually transmitted through your hands". I don't think you really can play the theremin well unless you are singing to yourself internally as your are playing it. And I mean actually singing to yourself (if I am recording direct, I'm singing along when playing). Your hands are just translating that into the gestures required for your real voice to be expressed through the instrument. At least that's what I feel like when I am playing.

And great analogy with singing. Very similar, yes in that you don't have to move too much (externally). Internally is another story. Then again a lot of singers can move quite a bit. I actually want my body to move a bit when I play this thing. Not so much as to interfere but I want a bit of movement as I think it is crucial for expression. Then I could be wrong there.

Rich

Since there are so many variables that you cannot control when you play, there is one that you can; Anything that will affect your balance, will affect your movements and will affect your playing. So sitting down to play for me was something that made sense right away. The movements of expression cannot be so great in your body cause you will start swaying and your playing will suffer. that's why more thereminist show expression of emotion in their face rather than their body. Also, when you let your control go, at least at the theremin ~ it will not sound pretty.

I call it Restrained fury :)

"In 10 years time I truly believe there will be no one that can tell the difference as long as the musician using the samples really knows what they are doing. Theremin included (assuming anyone wants to create a professional theremin sample library). " - Rich

I agree that the vast majority of people will be fooled, even (particularly?) on theremin samples as most have not listened to much theremin - In fact, I would say that the vast majority couldn't tell the difference between a skillfully played portamentoed keyboard and a theremin.

BUT -

For those who know and play the theremin, I think they will be able to identify sample produced works.

First though, I think I need to define what what I talking about, because there is grounds for confusion and I think I may have tripped into this a bit..

As I see it, sampling could be placed into two 'groups' - Mostly, it is used to allow instruments to be played on different interfaces, primarily a keyboard or DAW.. With such interfaces the sample can "embody" all sorts of "subtleties" such as vibrato and amplitude modulations etc.

As an instrument designer I have been thinking mainly in terms of another use - this being the use of sampled sounds is some form of wave-table configuration, to be controlled by a digital version of the original instrument.. And here I have realized that one cannot capture the theremins 'magic' or 'authentic sound' in samples and put them under the (new) players control - for the simple reason that the essence of this magic is in the real-time control the original player 'embedded' into the sound.

Imagine one had a purely electronic violin which accurately relayed pitch and vibrato and bowing and all other performance related data to a wave-table engine, the only usable samples would be those devoid of vibrato or other other performance related functions.. As soon as one used a sample containing 'embedded' vibrato or amplitude modulations, the controlling violin would become unplayable.

The same is true for a theremin.

However - Play a violin sample set on a keyboard, and if you know what you are doing you can make music which will convince most that you have a violinist in there! - This is because (IMO) you are, in fact, replaying the skill and musicality embedded by the performer who created the sample.

With the violin, there are many great violinists - obtaining a large set of good quality "composite" samples with "music in their soul" is possible, and the "correct" samples to suite the music can probably be found..  But imagine that there had only been 10 "worthy" violinists, and that all violin samples had to be extracted from past performances from these 10 - I think people would identify the samples as "the same sample as x used on their performance of y"

We could load up raw waveforms from classic instruments, and accept that these will only sound 'magic' if played well and the qualities are embedded by the player - but I am now inclined to think its a lot easier to just create these raw waveforms in whatever engine we choose - the primary requirement is that these waveforms are free to change dynamically without any latency between player actions and waveform alteration/ distortion.

IMO, Sample collection for the purpose of musical use is probably a dead-end.. Both in terms of incorporating "authentic" samples into a "theremin control" interface (if we are trying to capture more than just a waveform, and think we can actually play a Claramin by loading samples from her theremin) and for replay on a keyboard or DAW.

But I am often wrong ;-) .... I am one of the people back in the Netscape days who would have taken a bet that the internet would never go anywhere.. ;-)

Fred.

"But here's the $64,000 question. Was Clara a top professional violinist? Did she play moderately well and by comparison the theremin seemed so much more difficult because she never attained the level of a true world-class virtuoso? " - Rich

"Born as Clara Reisenberg in Vilnius, Vilna Governorate (now Lithuania), Rockmore was a child prodigy on the violin and entered the Imperial conservatory of Saint Petersburg at the age of five. She studied violin under the virtuoso Leopold Auer, and remains to this day the youngest student ever to be admitted to the institution. Unfortunately, bone problems due to childhood malnutrition forced her to abandon violin performance past her teen years. That however led her to discover the newborn electronic instrument and become perhaps the most renowned player of the theremin."

http://www.nadiareisenberg-clararockmore.org/clara_biography.htm

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I have done a quick search but come up with nothing -

Does anyone know of any recording of Clara playing the violin? ... I suspect that there isn't any, but would be real interested in hearing it if there was!

How good a violinist was Clara Rockmore? 

Since she never became a professional violin virtuoso and recording artist, we cannot answer that question. What we DO know is that she had concertized extensively as a violin prodigy (she had been playing since the age of three!) before being forced to give up the instrument. Like the great Jascha Heifetz (who was ten years older than Clara and also born in Vilnius) she was a star pupil of Leopold Auer, the violinist for whom Tchaikovsky wrote his Opus 35 Violin Concerto. 

Teachers of Auer's reputation and international stature do not accept students whom they do not deem capable of professional careers. 

Clara was on the eve of her New York City debut violin concert, for which she was to play the Beethoven Violin Concerto, when tragedy struck and she developed an incurable and incapacitating problem with her bowing arm. Professor Auer blamed her for the condition saying that she had pushed herself too hard, and sadly the two of them had a falling-out and did not speak again. Auer died in the summer of 1930 at the age of 85.

Clara tried many times to go back to the violin, even while she was learning to play the theremin, but her bowing arm problem was chronic and reasserted itself with every attempt. 

Ironically, if Clara had gone on to have a violin career she would probably have been forgotten long ago. Every generation produces a small army of fine fiddlers that eclipses the generation that preceded it, and today Clara would probably be only a brief footnote in the musical history books.

As a thereminist, however, she has not been eclipsed. With all due respect to the fine players alive today, many people (including me) hail Clara as by far the greatest theremin virtuoso of all time. In fact, she is probably more well-known and more widely recognized today than she ever was in her own lifetime.

Now, about the human voice, as with other traditional instruments, THERE IS CONTACT between the vocal cords and the singer. There is a PHYSICAL link between the "instrument" and the human brain. The only difference is that the link is direct, and not via the hands, feet, or any other of several human appendages.

"The difficulty of any musical instrument can be gauged by how long it takes a student to learn to play a simple melody accurately, repeatedly and consistently."  Itzhak Perlman

With this thread about to roll over I will fill the spot. In recent years the theremin has its advocates that want to make it easier to play, maybe even faking it, but could they be missing the point? What makes the theremin unique is doing something original that can not be done with any other method effectively. If the music can be done on a keyboard better it would be foolish to use a theremin… and like wise.

Christopher