Creating a theremin sample set

Peter,

I would really like to hear your opinion on the question of the player 'modifying' the sound from a theremin, and your opinion on the respective 'balance' between the 'waveform' (core sound) put out by the instrument versus what the skilled thereminist (one with "music in their soul" ;-) can do with this, and how much you feel they can / do 'modify' this sound.

Am I barking up the wrong tree (or barking mad ;-)? .. Its ok, If you think I am, you can say so ;-)

You have probably played more classic and modern theremins than anyone else, and really played them - Iam on the 'outside' listening to recordings and subjectively evaluating what I hear, then ripping waveforms apart and coming up with hypotheses to explain my likes and dislikes - but I have no way of objectively evaluating the relative importance of the "component parts".

Some 'objectivity' is needed for the advancement of the instrument I think - If the "holy grail" can be more easily obtained by improving playability or responsiveness, then this should be a primary focus for new developments, if it is waveform or formant's, these may need more attention - But if it primarily comes down to the players skill and 'soul' (as I now suspect) then searching for the "magic" is just a waste of effort - The time better spent on precision engineering of that which can be engineered.

I am almost completely convinced that I am "right", LOL;-), That probably something way in excess of 50% of what makes some theremin performances wonderful and "mystical" is entirely down to the musician.. And I actually think this is true for classical and experimental, precision and 'chaotic' performances - That some people, knowingly or subconsciously, are able to get more from the instrument and particularly the instruments timbre than others, and that this is done real-time and dynamically.

But like everything I want to believe or (as in this case) dont want to believe, I lack faith ;-)

Fred.

"In recent years the theremin has its advocates that want to make it easier to play, maybe even faking it, but are they be missing the point? What makes the theremin unique is doing something original that can not be done with any other method effectively. If the music can be done on a keyboard better it would be foolish to use a theremin…" - Christopher

Found something we almost fully agree on!

;-)

Making the theremin easier by improving its pitch response (linearity etc) or allowing the note span of the field to be adjusted is, IMO, simply improving the instrument - not "faking it".

Also, I can see that someone who doesn't play any other instrument,may want their theremin be able to control other instrument sounds -and I see nothing wrong with facilitating this if possible- provided the instrument is still a good theremin.. IMO its only when the theremin is 'downgraded' in order to achieve the ability for it to sound like something else that this action becomes utter folly - taken to the unimaginable extreme of the theremini which is so wrecked it cant play anything!

Fred.

Fred said: "That probably something way in excess of 50% of what makes some theremin performances wonderful and "mystical" is entirely down to the musician.." 

Fred,

I'd make it more like 85-90% (some would say 100%) and I can apply that statement to virtually any instrument. In this area I don't see the theremin has any distinct difference than any other. The person playing it is what makes it musical. The instrument itself is just making music.

Now as for trying to make a theremin easier. Ok, maybe you can make it a bit easier, but not by a factor of even two I would think. Even your "easy" instrument will take years, if not a lifetime to master. You can say the same for most any instrument as our nature is to always want to improve.

The biggest stumbling block I see for the thermein is not ease of use. It's that there is no huge popular base. Until more people bring it to the public's attention, write for it, make popular recordings (that people really want to hear), etc., I can't see that it can be much more than it is now.

Thank God for YouTube there. Actually, it was Peter's YouTube videos that made me say - "Wow, gotta get one of those. I'm all in".

Rich

Hello Rich,

Oh yes - I agree with everything you say above -

my "That probably something way in excess of 50% of what makes some theremin performances wonderful and "mystical" is entirely down to the musician." was in the context of the sound or timbre - of a specific aspect of the theremin / player contribution to this, rather than a 'global' assessment of performance / music.

If you like, thinking software engineering, I suppose I see the tonal aspects as an "object" within a program - If the performance is the 'program' there will be a huge number of other 'objects' (including timing and intonation etc) and the musician is probably 85% - 100% 'responsible' for the performance with instrument in this context..

But if the "tonal object" has a dull or gross waveform,and/or if the player is unable to 'influence' the subtleties of the sound musically, then this 'object' or 'component' will impact on the higher level 'program' or performance.

And within this context alone, I suspect that at least 50% of this object is, quite literally, in the hands of the thereminist.

As for your other points -

Yes, I see that wider use of the theremin in popular music or new classical compositions would help to 'promote' the instrument..

But I really dont think that sampled theremins played on keyboards will promote the theremin, (I dont think this is what you are suggesting) - I agree that perhaps as a tool for composers, later to be played by thereminists, it could be of use - But even here I have huge doubts.. I think a composer would probably be better off playing the theremin badly (and even applying auto-tune) and then presenting this to a thereminist.

"I can't see that it can be much more than it is now."

To be honest, I dont think it ever can be - I think the theremin will always have only an incredibly few number of people who can really play it, that these people, and these people alone, will be the only reason the theremin survives as anything other than a novelty or noise-maker -and that these people alone (and those who came before and whose recordings are played) will be the inspiration for any future theremin virtuosos.

And the masses will play theremini and other junk badly,and somehow enjoy doing so.

Fred.

Fred,

Right. That is not at all what I am suggesting. Let's say a composer gets an assignment for a TV show or a video game and the composer needs a theremin sound but the producer only has $ to pay him/her to do the job (as is often the case these days). Well either the composer can get a synth and create a theremin-like sound, or if a really good sample library exists, perhaps that's a better solution for what the composer wants to do.

Then there are folks like me who want to write for the theremin. Well I can write only simple things I can play now, but that's not what a composer wants to do. They want the muse to take them where they need to go.

Perhaps even that a composer is writing a piece for a therminist friend and they want to get a feel for what it might sound like until the friend can play it.

There are plenty of very practical uses for a good theremin sample set (like there are for any sample set). But not to totally replace the theremin or thereminist.

Rich

Rich,

I completely agree that "There are plenty of very practical uses for a good theremin sample set (like there are for any sample set). But not to totally replace the theremin or thereminist."

Has truth in it.

I suppose where I see our primary disagreement is on the following:

"In 10 years time I truly believe there will be no one that can tell the difference as long as the musician using the samples really knows what they are doing. Theremin included (assuming anyone wants to create a professional theremin sample library). " - Rich

I do not believe (for reasons given in the last page) that this is true - or more particularly, I certainly dont believe it can ever be true for the theremin.

But you being right or me being right, actually makes not one iota of difference! There can be no down-side to having a great set of theremin samples, there can be no down side to trying to use such a set for whatever purpose..

The only down-side to any of this is probably at a hardware level- IF a new generation of unresponsive "instruments" was to flood the market and make true theremins (and those who can play them) even more obscure than they already are.

Also, I am a bit biased.. I own a hardware sampler and several software ones, and some wave-table instruments, and I really dont like any of them much.. Oh, IMO they are ok (essential) for pianos and organs and pads and the like, and I could never afford (or fit in my room) a Steinway Grand.. But for any instrument that has a natural interface other than a keyboard, I can hear that its a recording - I know that "I" am not bowing the Cello the way I would if I could play a damn cello- I am just playing a key which is triggering the playback of someone else playing the cello -and if I can get away with it, I much prefer to program an analogue synth and get it to make a cello-like sound I have control over -  I actually often prefer the fact that its obviously not a real cello that's being played. I have an OTT reaction to the idea of "canned" theremin - it makes me blood run cold!  ---- Give me an analogue mono-synth with portamento,pitch and vibrato wheels any day ! ;-)

You may be relieved to hear that I will be saying no more on this matter ;-) .. Please feel free to have the last word, and BTW, absolutely nothing personal about any of this.. I could quite easily change my mind about everything I have said on this matter, I do not have the musical expertise to make the kind of judgments with any authority or certainty - When it comes to music, I hardly even qualify as a hobbyist!

;-)

Fred.

Cuzzin Freddie wrote: "I would really like to hear your opinion on the question of the player 'modifying' the sound from a theremin"

Fred,

Think of the raw sound of a theremin the way you might think of the color of the paint on the walls of a room.

Now think of the thereminist as a qualified lighting technician.

A lighting technician cannot change the color of the walls but he can give the impression, within certain limitations, that the color is different from what it really is. He does this with the play of light and shadow, which could be compared to the way a skilled thereminist "sculpts" the sound of his or her instrument. 

He can also change the apparent color of the room by adding a certain color of light of his own, just the way a thereminist can "flavor" a certain musical passage by playing in a joyful or melancholy style. 

"First, have music in your soul. If you have that, you will find a way to do it." Clara Rockmore

Most people believe they have music in their soul and they will tell you so openly. Unfortunately, they often do not. What they really mean is, they love music. That is quite different. To have music in your soul means that music is with you every waking second of every day, and that is not necessarily an enviable thing.

Experts who study sleep tell us that dreaming of music is relatively rare, even among professional musicians and conductors. 

Interesting!

I've dreamt whole symphonic movements that I swear were original, and I even have thought while dreaming, I have to go write this down immediately when I wake up. Alas, every time I wake up, the minute the cobwebs disappear so does my symphony! This has happened a number of times. Aggravating!

Anyway the piano is one of the most used examples in this discussion of sound vs. music. Technically, what can you do other than hit the key with different force? There is no breathing into it to dynamically change things. No putting vibrato on a key (though some pianists will do that to stir their souls). On the surface, there is very little a musician can do to really affect it's sound. Yet it can be one of the most expressive instruments there is in the hands of a good painter - and the same instrument can sound totally different when played by two different pianists.

Rich

Coalport wrote:

Now, about the human voice, as with other traditional instruments, THERE IS CONTACT between the vocal cords and the singer. There is a PHYSICAL link between the "instrument" and the human brain. The only difference is that the link is direct, and not via the hands, feet, or any other of several human appendages.

It sound slightly odd to say "there is contact between the vocal cords and the singer" - it suggests that the vocal cords are not a part of the singer. I would rephrase that as "the vocal cords are a part of the singer", or "the instrument is part of the player."

With the theremin, this situation is reversed; instead of "the instrument is part of the player", the player is part of the instrument. Here is a diagram of the relevant part of the theremin circuit, illustrating this point.

The similarity is that the link is direct, and not "via" the hands or etc.

OT (I love this topic):

"To have music in your soul means that music is with you every waking second of every day, and that is not necessarily an enviable thing."  - coalport

I constantly have music going through my head, almost always from the last CD listened to (at the moment it's Under my skin by Peter Bradley Adams).  It's weird and usually pleasant, but not always.  The playback lyrics are sometimes situational in that they have an insightful take on what is transpiring in my emotional life at that very moment.  It's as though my subconscious is tipping its hand a bit by moving the needle around.

"Experts who study sleep tell us that dreaming of music is relatively rare, even among professional musicians and conductors."  - coalport

"I've dreamt whole symphonic movements that I swear were original, and I even have thought while dreaming, I have to go write this down immediately when I wake up. Alas, every time I wake up, the minute the cobwebs disappear so does my symphony!"  - rkram53

Outside of noodling around on guitar I don't compose in waking life, but the same has happened to me regarding composition of folk / pop songs during sleep and the instant evaporation at waking.  A couple of times I've caught my lucid brain in "effortless rhyming" mode which can be quite exciting (if it is indeed to be believed, as the observing portion of the brain is necessarily in an altered state).  But in general sleep is my only respite from the internal background music.