Theremin as synthesiser controller

"Don't forget, even if a module were able to receive and play pitchbend data over 10 octaves, there is a huge difference in timbre between the sound of C6 when it is triggered independently, and C6 when it is played by pitchbending C3 up two octaves."

For starters it would sound an octave lower than regular C6.

(Sorry. Rather immature of me to point that out, but I couldn't resist.)

You might try this: http://tomscarff.110mb.com/cv2midi/cv2midi.htm I'm currently making it.

The new Moog Slim Phatty is almost cheap enough
to tempt me. It would make a nice accessory for
my Etherwave Plus.

The price of analogue synths is absurdly high - in terms of the electronic component costs etc, modern analogue synths represent quite bad value for money..

I am hoping that the increase in demand will push the price down.. As with Theremins, it is probably the low volume that are produced which keeps the price high.. but I see no reason why a basic synth capable of interfacing with a CV Theremin should cost more than about £200.. I know they can be produced for about £200 as a prototyope - and I am talking about a rather special Synth here.. One with a heterodyning VCO, standard VCO, VCF, VCA and Ring Modulator.. No envelope generators as one does not *need these for a Theremin.

Even in the early '80s (Before the DX7 and digital / FM synthesis exterminated most of us analogue synth builders) the prices for analogue synths had been falling to realistic levels (helped by reasonable sales volume and the uptake of MIDI) and fully polyphonic analogue synths were retailing at the equivalent price of todays monophonics.

I may be wrong - but it looks to me like a lot of overpricing is happening in todays analogue market.. I can understand it - if people will pay £500 for something you could sell for £200, why drop the price to £200?

- Unless you are a bit crazy.

[i]if people will pay £500 for something you could sell for £200, why drop the price to £200?[/i]

To increase market share. If you can triple your sales by halving your profits you don't need to be crazy...

(Going OT - I notice that Waitrose (high end UK supermarket) is now advertising that many goods are now as cheap as Tesco (UK market leader) - this is spin of course; Tesco are now as costly as Waitrose - prices have been creeping up - and this at a time when the costs to supermarkets are falling. It's a strong indicator that the supermarkets are tooling up for a December price war.)

Fred! You've changed your thumbnail. I trust we are still dealing with the same fellow we have come to know, respect, and yes...I think I can safely say...LOVE!

Thank you Peter! ;-)

Yes, it is me.. I tried to update my thumbnail with a photo from Ether 2010 earlier this year, and in the process lost my original and was not able to get TW to accept any pictures - Thanks to Jason's hard work, this is now fixed!

Fred.

"if people will pay £500 for something you could sell for £200, why drop the price to £200?"

[i]"To increase market share. If you can triple your sales by halving your profits you don't need to be crazy..." - Gordon C [/i]

Yes - This is a mechanism by which price reduction occurs.. I think the reason why it has not been seen with analogue synths comes down to volume..

Many of the manufacturers of synth modules are extremely small businesses - they often have more demand than they are able to meet, and do not have the finances (or confidence) to risk expansion.

I discovered this when I was putting Epsilon together for HO 2008.. Running way behind schedule, I decided to buy in some synth modules rather than build the voicing circuitry myself.. I had major difficulty sourcing the modules in the 6 weeks I had available, even at the exhorbitant prices being charged - Modules are mostly built to order.. Only one (the largest) supplier had some modules ex-stock (but not the ones ideally suited to my application), and the 'supplier' I bought from had some modules with faults which I got 'cheap' (they still cost me £200). (I must just state that these were European suppliers - I do not know whether things are any different in the USA or elsewhere in the world).

It appears like there are a lot of players, but the fact is that there are a lot of extremely small players (almost 'hobbyist') in this market, and a couple of larger manufacturers.. I do not think that there is any incentive for any of them to lower their price - they cannot meet the demand even at their inflated prices.

The modules I bought were rip-off's of Moog schematics, and were quite appalling - they came with photo-coppied Moog schematics lifetd mostly from the Prodigy synth, with modifications to turn thim into stand-alone modules)

This is a market I am looking at closely - I am not in any position to exploit it - yet - But my recent developments are squarely in the CV camp and I will be building analogue synth voices to work with my capacitive front-ends.. At the moment my focus is on my 3d space joystick and CV controlled heterodyning oscillators.. The move from this to the wider analogue synth market should be straightforward.

But I expect that demand for the 3d J/S and the Theremin (+ the synth modules to go with these) will keep me firmly rooted in the Theremin community for the forseeable future - I think the synth requirements for Theremins and related instruments is quite different to those required by keyboard players - the main difference being that note triggering and envelope generation is not really required, but that better control of harmonics and articulation is required.

Fred.

I think you're right to focus on the user interface aspect - it's the one thing that can't possibly be emulated in software.

(Well, you're safe until Apple start making hardware with long distance capacitive sensors. LOL)


On a slightly more serious note - the absence of gate/note-on/off events in a theremin is pretty much why MIDI is not well suited to theremins - I would be more interested in OSC than MIDI for computer interfacing, and then generating gate events in software if required - examining rate of change of volume and/or pitch. Maybe even acceleration or further derivatives. (I'm just thinking out loud here.) Recognising discrete events is complicated on theremins - on a keyboard synth there are different buttons and knobs etc for notes, vibrato, pitch bend etc. so it is easy to distinguish between them - not so easy to divine the thereminist's intent from his hand movements.

[i]"on a keyboard synth there are different buttons and knobs etc for notes, vibrato, pitch bend etc. so it is easy to distinguish between them - not so easy to divine the thereminist's intent from his hand movements..." - Gordon C [/i]

Yes - I believe this is the key difference (and main appeal) of the Theremin and related instruments.. One literaly shapes the sound with ones hand movements.. It is my feeling that anything which impedes this intimacy will adversely affect the instrument.

One does not need complex digital algorythms to 'extract' basic 'signatures' from the players movements - one can easily obtain rate-of-change on volume or pitch signals, and use these to trigger any event one wanted.. But if one wants to trigger a 'preset' envelope or activate a preset vibrato rate or depth, or trigger a sample playback - well - all these are possible, even with quite basic analogue circuitry driven from a Theremin.. But, for me, such an excersise would be pointless - a little Yamaha portable keyboard with MIDI out would do the job far more easily and cheaply.

I do, however, think that there are a range of possibilities which have not yet been fully explored for Theremin related user interfaces, and that some of these could 'intrude' on the classic keyboard functions. My 3d sensor will (I hope) add to the Theremin a range of control features which will enhance 'natural' Theremin playing - With present Theremins, the volume antenna gives control of volume only - this allows the envelope to be shaped.. Adding the possibility of controlling other parameters simultaneously (particularly allowing control of the formant of the output tone) will, I hope, greatly enhance the instrument -- BUT -- It is only those who have mastered the Theremin who will be able to assess whether the extra concentration required to get the Theremin to sing is possible without detrement to other demands, like pitch control. (when I say 'sing' I literally mean sing - it is possible with formant filters to actually form recognisable words.. but the use I envisage is more for producing vowel intonations - oohhh aahhh etc.. these can be morphed into each other, controlled by the hands X/Y position - actually producing words is extremely difficult! - a word sounding close to "love" is quite easy to produce.. and the idea of how this could be used fills me with horror!)

Then there is an alternative to the pitch antenna which I am working on - This is simil;ar to a ribbon controller, except that it is capacitive - you dont need to touch the 'ribbon' (you can if you want ;-) it will sense the hand position for about 1" - and one slides the hand as with a conventional ribbon controller. Volume / Dynamics would normally be controlled by my 3d capacitive joystick (really need to find a suitable name for this beast!).. But, it would also be possible to use its proximity output so that one can trigger an envelope generator and play the 'ribbon' by 'striking' or 'plucking' it (as in, detecting rapid change in proximity, and using this to execute a trigger and output a 'velocity' voltage for dynamics) -- This would give the ability to instantly switch between Theremin sound and 'percussive' sounds -- one would simply move the volume hand away from the volume antenna / 3d E-J/S,(or have a switch which changes the mode, so that 'volume' data is derived from the envelope generator and not from the J/S) and play the ribbon like (for example) a bass guitar.

All the above CV based controllers suffer from one major obsticle - The lack of suitable analogue synthesisers at an affordable price - So it is inevitable that I must build Synths to go with my controllers.. Right now, this is a 'distraction' I would prefer not to have.. So, any Synth-builders out there who could offer me VCO/VCF/VCA/RM boards at a good price, or interested in partnership on the Synth side (I have a heterodyning VCO on the table) please contact me!

So much t