Life, the universe, time, space, fate, folly, and everything else..

Fred said: "The One" - Whatever that is..  The only way "the One" fits in a way I can "comprehend" is if, for example, "we" are all characters in the "mind" of a "super entity" - God, if you like.. That all our experience, thoughts etc is actually retained (or perhaps filtered for the few gems, and these retained).. That "we" are God, just as "we" are the universe.

I will post to this no more, you are on a journey and so close to something, as I hear it in your words. Your Pink Floyd video touches on mans ego driven exploits in deciding upon who lives and who dies. Your beliefs that you express are Hinduism and so I think you have had exposure. It is all an illusion from the creator's mind as the universe ends and starts again, there was no big bang. Hindu's also believe they recycle again and again until they get it right. To them Christians seem fortunate as they are forgiven, a simple gift so difficult to accept. We all have things in our past we wish we could forget, especially if you were a ground soldier in a war that you did not choose.

I knew who the enemy was until I heard him cry...

Christopher

" Your beliefs that you express are Hinduism and so I think you have had exposure. It is all an illusion from the creator's mind as the universe ends and starts again, there was no big bang. Hindu's also believe they recycle again and again until they get it right. " - Christopher.

Chris, I think there are philosophical thoughts (whether "true" or "false") in all religions - In fact, I would say these kind of thoughts and 'feelings' appear in everything humanity 'outputs' - although often hidden under layers of shit.

I dont believe there is such a thing as "getting it right" - As I see it, there are two distinct "posibilities" although many ways to "frame" these possibilities.

Fundamentally, I think  things are either "real" (physical, material) or "unreal" ("spiritual", "illusory") - Within the "Physical" model, there can be illusions, but within the "Spiritual" model, I cannot see how there can be "reality".

My 'analysis' makes me think that the "Physical" model is the most likely - BUT - I am aware that I have no way of confirming the "reality" of this "model" - and therefore I have no rational reason to believe it.. It does, however, provide the tools required to "interface" and (mostly) "explains" everything I can touch, taste, see, feel, hear and even think..

Within the Physical model, I see "determinism" as a certainty (or as close to certainty as anything can be) - And I see many things "embedded" in human (and other animal) nature which is illusory - Some of these "things" are, I think, evolutionary developments which were essential for our survival or at least greatly assisted our rise to dominance as a species.. The major delusion which facilitated this rise was, IMO, the delusion of "free will" - this delusion defined what we "are" - It gave rise to Ego, it spawned the ideas of "good" and "evil", and from this delusion all the notions upon which our culture and society are (supposedly) based, such as 'responsibility' 'justice' 'punishment' 'merit' 'respect' and the like, developed.

But every delusion carries with it a high price tag - The idea that one "reaps what you sow" leads to a problem when one sees a "good" person fall on hard times - it "doesnt make sense" - and most humans have a compulsion to see things "making sense" -

If one has a faulty model, but one cannot see that the model is faulty - when the "model" or "delusion" is so deeply embedded that it is "part of you", but you must explain what you see without exposing the "truth" that your model is a load of bunk.. Thats when one devises other models to explain what you are seeing - and these "models" can only, at best, be faulty - at worst they can become a whole new dangerous delusion, subject to failure in the same way as the underlying delusion whos failure you were trying to explain with your new model.

I think that the "Free Will" delusion preceded the "God Delusion" - The "God Delusion" was NEEDED in order to "explain" the anomolies which presented themselves as a result of the "Free Will" Delusion - One delusion riding on the back of the other.. An unseen, fairly helpless "god" and a malevolent "devil" throwing a spanner in the works every now and then - just read the story of Job and its all spelled out in gory detail.

Within the "Physical" model there is, however, a real problem IMO.. Illusions and delusions are an integral part of our evolution - this is a "physical" fact - Some other primates who evolved from our common ancestor(s) exhibit many of the same delusory traits that we do - Chimps certainly have ego, and a keen sense of "fairness" or "justice" - Signs that they are at least on the road to the free-will delusion.. Even some birds (like parrots) exhibit these traits..

When I first realized that free-will MUST be a delusion (within the physical model anyway) I was inclined to be almost evangelical about it - here was the answer - the reason - it explained everything!  ... But I sobered up after a few weeks as I realized some of the implications.. And realised that there was no way that I had reached the level of sophistication or development required to actually discard the illusion - Oh, I discarded the delusion, but discarding the illusion is a whole different matter - If I was to manage somehow to 'rip out' everything 'in me' which was based on this illusion, I would probably be unable to function as a human in human society.

Which brings me to the "Spiritual" model.. where everything is "unreal" - I can only (at present anyway) embrace this idea within the terms I described in my last posting.. A "collective" of "unreal" entities, all part of "the One" sharing a common "pool" of "data" - and coming "into" and "leaving" the dream - the only "remnants" of their "being" perhaps being what was "deposited" in the "pool"... I do not see any possibility of "individual continuance" -- And I dont think such "continuance" or lack thereof matters a damn -- the "they recycle again and again until they get it right" makes absolutely no sense to me.

Fred.

What's neat about free will is that brain scans can sense our decisions before we are conscious of making them!

Personally I've come to terms with being a meat puppet and an animal, and so don't find these categories degrading in any sense - they can actually be quite freeing once fully embraced. 

However I do find greed, superstition, overpopulation, authoritarianism (corporatism), nationalism, racism, and sexism highly degrading, and fear they will be our downfall.  Which wouldn't be quite as big a deal if we weren't so busy taking so many other species with us down the drain.

Where's the hippie movement when you really need it?

"Where's the hippie movement when you really need it?" - Dewster

LOL ;-)

Doesnt this question bring us right back to square one?

Anyway, IMO there are still a few remaining hippies - but they are getting a bit old now ;-) ... And any young hippies dont stand a chance - the system learned how to defeat them last time 'round... We have the occupy movement now, but this isnt the 60's .. In the 60's CCTV was expensive, and video recording was in large studios only.. The technology just wasnt available to keep tabs on individuals in groups. These days you cant even fart without the risk that the gasses will be analysed ad you will therebye be identified.. (LOL) .. apart from which we inform the system of our location every time we use a mobile phone or credit card.

I think we may be in an era when the unknown (read unsuspected) individual probably has more power than any group - As soon as groups form to do anything, the mere identification (by technological means) of the "grouping" makes them vulnerable.

Unfortunately, only raving lone lunatics seem to have "identified" this flaw in technology based security - If the atack in Norway had been carried out by a group of madmen rather than a solo maniac (regardless of what the courts found, IMO he was mad) then I suspect the terrible events may  have been "picked up" long before they were executed.

The "free-will" issue has far greater implications - It is just the tip of the iceberg.. Under the surface is the whole issue of "freedom" and "determinism" .. And it is these which "cause" all that you (and I) deplore - " greed, superstition, overpopulation, authoritarianism (corporatism), nationalism, racism, and sexism "

And within this understanding is (IMO)  our only "hope" - Everything which happens does so because of the causitive mechanisms - Every individual (and everything in the "Physical" model) is subject to its matrix of causal determinants... The reason that some scans can "sense our decisions before we are conscious of making them" is because the matrix has, effectively, caused the decision..

If we can, through whatever means, change any "component" of any persons "matrix" even slightly, we can "alter" their future (and by impact, the future)..

 Ghandi's Non-Violence, particularly the salt demo, had an effect which would probably have been impossible through any other means - He (and those who peacefully took the abuse from the British, who struck them violently in sequence while they offered no resistance) shocked people in Britain out of their illusion of "rightness" and "greatness" - or at least shocked enough people to change history.

Fred.

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I knew who the enemy was until I heard him cry...

****************************************************************** 

Christopher - I love this!

"Ghandi's Non-Violence..."

A wonderful thing, but this is why even massive worldwide protests are safely ignored by our betters these days.  And as you say, too many inexpensive cameras pointed everywhere - technology can be quite the game changer, as Eric Arthur Blair foresaw.  I was promised increased democracy due to the web and all I got was this stupid t-shirt (and a bunch of highly targeted advertising).

"If one has a faulty model, but one cannot see that the model is faulty - when the "model" or "delusion" is so deeply embedded that it is "part of you" "Fred.

That sounds like the United States government.

In my not so humble opinion, if the answer is another government program, it's gotta be a stupid question.

"I was promised increased democracy due to the web and all I got was this stupid t-shirt (and a bunch of highly targeted advertising)." dewster.

And lots of free porn....

FREE WILL - PART 1 - please note, "IMO" applies to everything I say here - but it gets boring typing these 3 letters next to every sentance - so please put them there yourself! ;-)

"That sounds like the United States government." - w0ttm

I think it is every government, every group, and probably every individual on this planet. What I am saying is that WE have a faulty 'model' upon which almost every aspect of our thinking and interaction with each other is based.

Let me try to illucidate this a bit:

If I am a person (person "A") who "is" responsible - I work hard, am respectful and considerate to others, study to gain competence and rise in my field, put money aside to 'buffer' me from future risks, give a "fair" proportion of my income to charity, pay my taxes and dont cheat, avoid even taking any "handouts" I am entitled to so as not to be a burden on society...

Due to the above I may gain "status" and "respect" and even "wealth" - I can, with a clear "consience" buy and "own" a large luxury home and "comforts" or "luxuries" which many others only dream (or scheme) of.

If I am a person (person "B") who "is" irresponsible - I am "lazy", am disrespectful and dont care about others, I am incompetent and do nothing to "improve" myself, Spend every penny I get instantly on self-indulgence, cheat and "steal" at every opertunity, and dont give a damn about society...

As person "A" I feel "superior" to person "B", and have "good reason" to feel this way - I believe that it is my efforts and hard work etc which has put me in my situation - I made the responsible choices, I took the "moral" route - I CREATED MY "LUCK".

Person "B" on the other hand looks at person "A" with envy and scorn - they have all the stuff I want, they behave as if they are "better" than me and talk crap about how they got to where they are - and they are now trying to dismantle the social mechanisms (benefits etc) which keep me alive, just so they can have more money which they dont really need, cause they have plenty. Because I am incompetent and uneducated, I rarely think beyond my blinkered view - a lot of the world is even more innaccessible and incomprehensible than it is for person "A" - But I am probably too "stupid" to notice that... Alternatively, person "B" may recognise that they are a "waste of space" and simply slouch about feeling worthless and hopeless.

Most of us on this forum are probably somewhere on the spectrum from"person A" to mid-way between "person A" and "person B". There is also a near infinite number of  "variations" of this "spectrum" including those who get to "person A"s position (and often much "higher")  through dishonesty and the like - and those in "person B"s position who are not only "lazy" but are far "worse" - Violent, abusive, "criminal"..

And most (if not all) of us will see "justice" in "Person A" having things "better" than "person "B" - and see "injustice" when someone behaving like "person A" ends hard-up having to depend on social mechanisms (benefits etc) which keep them alive, or someone who cheats and steals etc ending up aquiring "fruits" they have not "earned", and being "better off" than person "A".

And this is where awareness of the "delusion" of free-will, IMO, changes everything.. (from here on, I will use the word "delusion" for an "illusion" one has no awareness of, and the word "illusion" for an "error in thinking / perception"  which one is aware of - some of the time - but which one cannot completely extricate from ones life)

From a scientific / "physical" perspective, I can see no mechanism (and neither can many far greater physicists or thinkers - like Stephen Hawkins in the present day, or Pierre-Simon Laplace in the past) by which "Free Will" or even "freedom" can actually exist.

Even Werner Heisenberg's "creation" or "discovery" of Quantum Mechanics did not change the underlying principle - all it did was to prove that prediction of the future through observation of the matter and energy of the present was impossible (Laplace postulated that, if the state of the universe was known, in its entirety, at any given instant, all future and past states could, theoretically, be predicted.. Heisenberg's "uncertainty principle" showed that it was impossible to "capture" such a "snapshot" - or to compute past/future states as the quantum states could not be computed)

Everything which happens, happens as a result of the forces acting at the moment it happens - Everything follows the cause/effect rule - there has never been anything in the universe which has been seen to be contra-causal, and there has never been any theory or hypothesis to postulate any mechanism capable of acting without a causitive mechanism*. The "things" which cause anything to happen are enormously complex  (except in extremely controlled experiments - and even with these, there are still  "unwanted" influences which cannot be entirely eliminated).. The phrase I found which best describes this for me is the "matrix of causal determinants".

*The only possible grey area here is at the quantum level - As we are unable to observe quantum states, we cannot verify if there are / ar not any contra-causal "events" - We cannot "explain" quantum "froth" which comes in and out of existance without apparent "reason" in a vacuum - but, from a perspective of "free will", even if there were truly "random events" it would not change anything, as I may explain later - from a perspective of determinism, "true" randomness probably could change the picture a little - but both for free-will and determinism, the only change possible that I can see would be that, rather than everything being determined moments after universe began, there could be random "changes" to the "plan" thrown in occasionally... If this was true, then rather than being a 'script' "written" at the big bang, it is a script undergoing possibly continual modification - but, nonetheless, a script we have absolutely no influence over.

In the light of the above - with the awareness that EVERYTHING - every thought, feeling, action, event which happens to everything composed of matter, and even energy MUST result from the matrix of causal determinants acting on that entity - one can see that:

Every "choice" you make is absolutely determined by the influences on you - Every memory, every bit of information relevant (and even irrelevant), the state of you brain chemistry (alcohol or coffee, rested or tired, blood sugars, endorphine levels etc) and your brain "wiring" (your genetics, synaptic connections determined by your development, changes caused by viral damage or parasites or nutritional deprivation at critical moments) The background environment (music, noise, electrostatics - positive or negetive ions, illumination levels) - I have mentioned only the tiniest and most obvious components of the 'matrix' off the top of my head - but the list of possible "influences" are extensive - even the gravitational effects of the moon and planets will alter the "balance" - "local" influences will be more profound (and all influences are subject to the speed of light - if the sun was to explode now, the influence of that event would take about 8.5 minutes before it had any influence on me - so would probably not prevent me from posting this! ;-) 

Some "choices" we make seem incomprehensible with hindsight - we (or certainly I) cannot understand how we could have been so stupid (or rarely, LOL, so "insightful") .. These "mysterious" "choices" are probably due to "components" in the matrix which I have forgotten, or which I was, or could never have been aware of.

I think that everyone makes what they believe are the best choice to serve their interest* at the time they make a choice - I do not think people make (or can make) any choice which they do not believes serves their intended purpose..

People can (and do) "willingly" make "bad" choices - I can "choose" to eat a slice of strawberry cheesecake knowing it will elevate my already high bloodsugar, or smoke a roll-up knowing this aint good for me..... But, at the moment I make those choices, there are factors in the matrix which outweigh factors which would (should) cause me to make the "sensible" choice..... If, at the moment I was "choosing" the cheescake, I suffered a stab of neuropathic pain in my toes, reminding me of the possible concequences of high blood sugar / poor diabetic control, I would probably make a different "choice" in that moment... because this stab of pain would have momentarily "increased" the "weighting" of some "components" of the matrix.

I have no 'control' over the matrix - many 'components' of the matrix I have been 'responsible' for, but even with these, everything I ever did which influenced my matrix at this moment, was done under the influence of my matrix at that time.. and "my" matrix started and was "established" long before this solar system was formed - everything that I "am" every choice that "I" make, is utterly and completely and inescapably determined. I am not "free", my "will" is not "free", my "choices" are not "free".

And the same is true for "person B" and every other person on this planet. We are all absolutely "creations" or "puppets" of the universe - except that "puppets" have a "puppet master" - we have no "puppet master"  - we have only the cold concequences of evolutionary development and universal rules of cause and effect.. What we "are", what we "become", our "destiny" or "fate" is determined by one thing, and one thing only - it is a thing we like to think that we can "create" - but this is just another illusion - we call this "thing" LUCK.

===============================================

Everything is down to "Luck".. It was "luck" which gave me the genes which produced my brain, it was luck which cause this brain to be "wired" in a way which gave me a generally positive and inquisitive disposition - I see people who, for no apparent reason, are less happy and less "interested" in life, even from an early age, than I ever was.. They do not choose their state, it is "what they are" and I never chose my state, it is "what I am" - It is sometimes possible to "reprogram" unhappy people through counceling / psychotherapy - effectively (I now belive this is a big part of the thereputic process, although explained differently by practitioners) strengthening the "useful" "components" of their "matrix"... but, again, it is luck which "determines" whether such a person meets a therapist with the ability to help them.

"Person B" was less lucky than "person A"  - and that is the bottom line. The arguments may rage over "nature vs nurture" but, however it "pans out" both "nature" and "nurture" for "person B" (as for person "A" and every other person) are / were ENTIRELY pre-determined - For some, this led to a "lucky" mix, and for others it led to an "unlucky" mix. Person "B" was just unlucky.. But not as unlucky as some other people who are born into poverty, subjected to cruelty and child labour, are abused and die young never having expierienced any of the joys we here take for granted.

As it is LUCK which made me what I am, I have no rational basis on which to feel that I am "superior" or "better" than anyone else - I have no reason to expect any "respect" for my "goodness" - I have no grounds to judge others.. but for the "grace" of the "universe" I could be "person B".. I have not "earned" anything, do not "deserve" anything, and, if my luck changes and I find myself in the gutter, have no rational reason to complain (not saying that I woudnt complain ;-)  - some people have always been in the gutter due to bad luck - I have been lucky to have ever been lucky!

================================================

Luck knows no "fairness" or "justice" - these are ideas WE have created.. And they are probably ideas spawned from (or with) the "free will" delusion.

And, for me, the above highlights the biggest problem with "relinquishing" the free-will delusion, or even "downgrading" it to an "illusion" - because, doing this could undermine many of the foundations for ideas I really cherish... Without at least this illusion being 'active' to some degree, I have no mechanisms which work "well enough" or any "points of reference" with which I can "relate" to a society which functions, almost entirely, on the "free will" delusion.

The transformations required for society to "disengage" from the delusion are so massive that it will require, I think, many millenia  - The truth, I think, is a truth we are not evolved enough to accept yet... But every major evolutionary change must start somewhere.. Often, just before a major extinction event, which allows the mutant form to gain a foothold.

.. Our ancestors were probably scurrying about in the undergrowth and being trampled on by dinosours.

End of part 1.

Fred.

From - LOOP AND POLE or FLATHEAD thread >

"How can someone talk about multiple universes and dismiss what I do so lightly." - Christopher.

Simple really -

Someone who really engages with the ideas of multiple universes, multiple realities, and realises that their "actual" existance is highly questionable.. Well, They are able to "dismiss" anything and everything "lightly"..

But the above does not make such "dismissal" "right".. And if I have been guilty of being "dismissive" about what you do, I am truly sorry for that - In the context of the above "metaphysical", what you do is as "tangible" and "valid" as whatever "anyone else" "does" - and likewise, as "intangible" and "invalid" as what "anyone else" "does".

First, I never "knew" if you were bipolar or just 'messin 'bout when talking of lithium an the like - This is the thing about on-line "relationships" - one never "really" "knows" whether the person is being their "true self" or living some "persona" of "themself".

Also, my reference to "bipolar" never had you in mind at all - I know it must have seemed that way - and I am infuriated at myself for not realizing that you might see these words as a 'snipe'.. It was the words "loop" and "pole" and the focus on "levity" which probably caused my not-too-clever sense of humor to connect the word loop to loopy, and pole to bipolar...

I am no stranger to bipolar disorder - One of my daughters developed severe (Bipolar 1) disorder in her late teens - The diagnosis was "incurable" - but I never trust diagnoses or prognoses. She was unable to tolerate lithium or several other "standard" "treatments" .

Being with her through her episodes of mania and depression and living with the ever present fear that she would end it all - and, at times, the unbearable "realization" that she might actually be better off escaping from the continual nightmare - (the "if you love them, let them go" confronted me several times - and my daughter said to me more than once "Daddy, if you love me - dont stop me!"..

Ten years ago, it stopped. I had "argued" with her "demons" for years - I had "lied" to her and her "demons" continuously - telling her / them that there was hope, that life was worth living, that things would get better.... I never believed a word I was saying, I was just holding on in (not so quiet) desperation ...

But, unknown to me, the words were not lies - they were all true - I now have daughter who is living life to the full, as happy as any person on this planet - taking no medications and saner, happier, and more "stable" than I have ever been. The doctors say it must have been a "misdiagnosis" (for them to ever admit that is near infinite improbability, LOL) and she is off "the register" (Which annoys her a bit, because she doesnt get the extra money this would entitle her to, LOL ;-)

Those years with my bipolar daughter showed me a lot - The stuff which came out, particularly in depressive episodes, were mostly "real", but "amplified" - all the questions, all the hopelessness, all the fears, the desperation - felt and voiced without any "padding" ... Real problem for me was that most of what came out was true, and was "un-arguable"... And some of it was a bit contageous.. The manic episodes were "fun" in the early stage - buzzing with crazy ideas and energy, which became less and less rational, then moved on to dangerous / destructive.

So - If you are bipolar, perhaps I understand it a bit - But I have no (first-hand) knowledge of the effects of lithium or the drugs of that ilk. What I do know is that, at the early / low level stage of manic episodes, the braind "sanity filter"* opens up, and allows wilder ideas to get through to consious thought - As the mania progresses, these ideas become less and less "realistic" or "sane" and the volume of "insane" ideas become overwhelming, so the the "sane" and "borderline" ideas become buried under the trash and confusion the manic is having to deal with.

*I read about an inventor who built an extremely large neural network 'computer' which he had as several sub-units.. One unit produced "variations" of data it had been fed (this inventor, when originally playing with nn's, had accidentally disconnected the inputs to a nn - he saw that the nn was still processing based on prior data, and "realized" that it was, effectively, "dreaming") - the other followed this first unit and "filtered" this data based on previously learned "methods"..

The inventor was a materials scientist, so he fed the first nn with data on material properties, let it "dream", and then manually looked at the outputs - From these outputs he developed the 2nd nn, which removed the bulk of the nonsence generated by the first nn - Eventually, the outputs made "sense" but produced some wildly "unusual" material compositions.. On testing some of these "wild" ideas, he realised that his "computer" was "inventing" some amazing materials with astounding and valuable properties.. The "key" to obtaining these outputs was to set the filter so that the truly absurd ideas were removed, but the filter was "open" enough to allow real "innovations" to get through.. The inventor patented many of his computers inventions - he holds more patents on new materials than any other person - and his computer therefore holds more patents than any other computer!

If we take the above example as an analogy for our "innovation" process, I think it leads to the hypothesis that you need to be a little bit "crazier" than most to be a prolific innovator - BUT - If your filter is too wide open, you are going to be "washed away" by the torrent of ideas.

 "It is your feedback that keeps it sane, I totally respect it. "

This is (or has been) one of my major professional functions - and one of my major sources of income - Acting as a consultant for clients who need to evaluate ideas before spending (often large sums of) money on the idea.. Sometimes this is a heartbreaking job - I must serve my client by fully exploring the idea - if the idea has merit and is possible to implement, I must not miss this, and likewise, if the idea is flawed or impossible to implement, I must expose this.

Only about 30% of inventions I have evaluated are not complete nonsense (and these are ideas / inventions which have actually got through the "formal" filtering process and made their way to where they are being looked at by investors) and of these, only about 10% can be implemented practically, ond of these, only about 30% are actually worth producing.

I have had old inventors who have spent their pension fund obtaining a worthless patent on an impossible idea - and been "forced" to sit with my client and them and explain the flaw/s and witness the despair if/when the reality sunk in.. But at least half of these inventors cannot and will not accept that their dream is just a delusion - they cannot let go - I am the devil incarnate to them, an agent of the system who is trying to steal their idea.

"Maybe take your shoes off at the temple entrance?"

I can see this makes sense for a "physical" temple - simply to reduce the cleaning required.. And I accept that, on an interpersonal level it is good to respect peoples personal "temples".. But, if one really wants to keep ones temple "clean" it is probably best to hide it from the "dirty mob" ! ;-) ... If you really want to hide it, then dont talk about it - saying "I got this glorious temple filled with treasures, but only those I invite can see it, let alone enter it" will cause some people to hunt for it - some because they want to know what youve got stashed in it, and some because they dont believe you, and want to show that you are a bullshitter.

I think you have "it" - And I think that whats inside it is extremely holy TO YOU.. I have no interest in visiting it though - I fear that, in order to avoid "dessicrating" it I might be forced to lie about what I think of its "contents" - And I really dont want to take this risk.

Your "temple" is a different matter - For "temples" in general though, What I cannot do is pretend to worship or be respectful to some "entity" which I (rationally or morally) find laughable or deplorable - If the god described in the OT wasnt just a figment of sick humam imagination, I could still never "worship" or "respect" such a vile entity.

Also - the idea of "holy ground" is one that I cannot "attach" to at all - "Take off your shoes - for the ground on which you are standing is holy ground" is (IMO) one of those nonsensical bullshit fictions which I find laughable.. How long does this ground retain its property of "holyness" ? What was it before it became "holy" - What happened to the centuries of shit and decay that is embedded in this ground before it became "holy" - did this become "holy shit" ? - Where is this ground now? Do animals avoid defficating on it? Did its "holyness" just "wear off" ? Is there an unseen force field which stops roads being built on it, or bombs from falling on it, or living things from dying on it?

And even adherents to religions espousing "hollyness" are not respectful of its "qualities" - Muslims bombing mosques of other "brands" of Islam, Christians destroying each others places of worship (more so in the past, but it still happens) .. The Jews have their special places of "hollyness" and the Muslims have their special places of "hollyness" and the Christians have their special places of "hollyness".. And these places often converge on the same locale, giving rise to conflict.. Future war costing mega deaths is just one argument about some "holy ground" away - All it would take to turn the flames in the Middle East into an inferno would be for something to happen to the Mosque of Omar.. Or for some mad fanatic to "inspire" the Israelli people to rebuild Davids Temple where the Mosque of Omar stands..

All this "holy ground" does is create "unhollyness" and death and suffering and stupidity and blindness.

Fred.

ps.. Bipolar is classified as "incurable" - But I wonder if this may be because anyone who is "cured" is deemed to have never been bipolar - thay have been "misdiagnosed" .. Its utterly outrageous to me that an illness which (for MANY people) does not last their whole life, is still touted as "incurable and life-long".

Instead, "they" should be looking closely at cases where the desease has "gone away" and trying to determin what factors may have caused it to "go away" - Was there some machanism which actually CURED the illness?

Instead, they cite how it is easy to mis-classify diagnosis of mental disorders, and say "it must have been a misdiagnosis".. Great! - If it was a misdiagnosis of Schizophrenia for Bipolar, or Bipolar for Schizophrenia, this would make sense... But, believe me - There is NO possibility of misdiagnosing "normal" teenage behaviour for a severe mental illness like Bipolar or Schizophrenia !

Fred said: "Also, my reference to "bipolar" never had you in mind at all - I know it must have seemed that way - and I am infuriated at myself for not realizing that you might see these words as a 'snipe'.. It was the words "loop" and "pole" and the focus on "levity" which probably caused my not-too-clever sense of humor to connect the word loop to loopy, and pole to bipolar..."

I thought this comment was funny Fred, never was I offended or anything like that. Yes I am proud to say I have taken lithium for 30 years. It really is a benign medication that requires periodic blood checks. Hollywood movies like to use the word to scare people. Yes I have visited another world or maybe another universe but this is part of my normal. I think the biggest problem with mania is an intense love for mankind and wanting to help the many people that come into ones path. Your high volume writing with multiple coloring is a manic characteristic. I wish you had a way to calm your mind and achieve more rim sleep.  When ever I become ill mentally or physical I always wait to long and the situation becomes critical. I do wish you the very best.

Diagnosis comes after a major break from reality and the police get involved. Here in the states it now seems they kill first then ask questions. This is due to the poor individuals trapped in drug and meth issues.

Christopher

Edit: In the movie K-Pax Kevin Spacey played a man that was hurt so badly he could only survive by disconnecting and creating a new reality. He is manic through the entire movie until he collapsed into a catatonic state. It was a very sad movie.

" Your high volume writing with multiple coloring is a manic characteristic. I wish you had a way to calm your mind and achieve more rim sleep." - Christopher.

I get plenty of Rem sleep - perhaps too much! .. The more sleep I get, the more ideas I have to deal with when I wake up! ;-)

"volume writing with multiple coloring" - This is, I think, more a function of my obsessive nature - not wanting to leave anything "important" out - wanting to be precise and comprehensive.. And the coloring is about trying to differentiate between whats "relevant" and whats "incidental" .. Would be real nice if there was a way one could embed "notes" which only apeared if one clicked on them..

I am in the process of writing several books -  I hope to publish a series of books on electronic musical instrument design, starting with the theremin - These will be a sort of mix between theoretical "reference" works and "cookbook" - Covering the "needs" of both designers and those wanting to build a theremin to suit their requirements.

I am also writing a book on "positive determinism" which is what I call my take on the issues of free-will and all that stuff.

So much of what I post here is not effort soley for TW - Some of it is "testing" to see how people respond to my "style" and "content".

In the light of this - I would be interested in feedback on my "Free will 1" posting - I am interested in knowing if anyone here is at all interested  in what I wrote - or is this type of subject only of interest in  sites like rationalskepticism.org ? Also, is anyone interested in me posting part 2  - I dont want to fill the TW servers up with stuff no-one wants! (I dont actually post much on sites like RatSkep, or read posting there much - I find them too philosophical or metaphysical most of the time, even for my tastes.. Lots of people trying to convert each other or unconvert each other mostly - LOL ;-)

"I have taken lithium for 30 years. It really is a benign medication that requires periodic blood checks." - Chris

Yes, it does agree with quite a lot of people, and these people get good control and can live a near normal life. There are some people who it doesnt agree with - or perhaps these people just give up on it too soon.. My daughter swelled up like a baloon, put on so much weight she became almost imobile - She had been an attractive slim girl, and this "deformation" just pushed her down to the depths of self loathing.. She never went manic when on lithium, but she was sick and completely depressed.

"Diagnosis comes after a major break from reality and the police get involved." - Yeah, same story with my daughter.

" I think the biggest problem with mania is an intense love for mankind and wanting to help the many people that come into ones path." - LOL, no, that never happened with my daughter! ;-) ... Quite the opposite!

"I thought this comment was funny Fred, never was I offended or anything like that."

Phew! I am glad to hear that!

;-)

Fred.

Edit: In the movie K-Pax Kevin Spacey played a man that was hurt so badly he could only survive by disconnecting and creating a new reality. He is manic through the entire movie until he collapsed into a catatonic state. It was a very sad movie - Christopher

Yeah - One of my all-time favorite films.. Have also read K-Pax 2, its good, but IMO not as good as 1.. With 1 there was still the question about the "reality" of K-Pax hanging "in the air" - 2, however, almost completely flattens that "fantasy" - But it makes up for this in other ways..