capacitance effects and philosophy

That tiny avatar photo of you I always thought you looked like Chong of Cheech & Chong?

Open the door, its Dave.....who? its Dave...  Dave's not here.

Look at the size of that doobie, I am getting a contact high!

dew and fred may not get it, its humor, American humor. (-'

Christopher

Fred you did miss the humor but reveal other emotions.

dew just has a stale personality, we love him though.

Interestingly the Ukraine is the most popular visitor to my theremin website currently, second only to the USA.

How can the US be broke, we print the money most countries want to use. I don't even know what money is today other than a concept that people must have faith in for it to have value, like gold. Value is a psychological thing. So is the value of a house.

Money is not lost on wars, they just redistribute the wealth creating jobs. I hate wars but looking deeper all are based upon religious beliefs. When Moses came down that mountain he held in his arms common sense! Where did that go?  Lets fire up that doobie now.

Christopher 

Fred, what you say about this entire field really resonates.  I remember telling my co-workers when I was getting laid off that I'd maybe take a year to build and market a Theremin then move onto bigger and better electronic musical instruments.  I mean, how hard could it be?  Ha ha!

Christopher, that sound like quite an impressive financial VB program you wrote!  And I know what you mean about aging and mental ability.

Dewster said about the pitch field: “This aspect of the Theremin constantly amazes me.”

Now is a good time to bring up an observation of the pitch field I have mentioned before. Inquisitive minds want to know. The pitch field for me in practice is like a bubble around the pitch antenna. Why is it, if you place a flat palm parallel to the pitch antenna and bring up your other hand from the rear next to it, the pitch field does not rise more until the second hand passes the first hand. Have your hands one above the other so the angle to the pitch antenna remains the same. The first hand seems to push the field forward until the second arrives and pushes it further forward. Anyone can demonstrate this using his or her theremin.

This effect allows the Thereminist to change the shape of their hand maintaining the same distance from the antenna while holding the same pitch.  Though the hand becomes twice as wide the theremin does not sense a change until one or the other hand moves forward.

Distance of the object has more response than the width of the object.

Christopher

"Why is it, if you place a flat palm parallel to the pitch antenna and bring up your other hand from the rear next to it, the pitch field does not rise more until the second hand passes the first hand." - Christopher

I have no idea why!

Because if I do that, the pitch changes long before the 2nd hand passes the first hand!

The effect of the 2nd hand (how much pitch will change as it gets closer to the 1st hand) will depend on how close to the antenna the first hand is..

"This effect allows the Thereminist to change the shape of their hand maintaining the same distance from the antenna while holding the same pitch.  Though the hand becomes twice as wide the theremin does not sense a change until one or the other hand moves forward."

I have no idea why!

Because changing the shape of the hand changes the pitch for me, and is one of the techniques used with arial fingering.

I have never ever seen anything like what you describe above -

I need to ask those who play theremins to comment on this, because to me, I cannot believe that anyone who has played with a theremin could agree with your observations - Oh - this behaviour would apply to optical or ultrasonic "theremins".. but I have never seen it on theremins with antennas (I wont say capacitive sensing, because that might cause an argument).. I frequently watched people struggling to play a tune on my H1's and getting pissed off with their friends who crowded in BEHIND them because the pitch changed! - Oh, most people didnt notice - but a handful of people werent tone deaf and did notice.

Christopher, If I had ever seen any of the effects you describe, I would be looking for a mechanism other than capacitance to explain theremin operation..

But I have never seen any of the things you describe - I have seen the opposite. And if what you describe is what you are expieriencing, then I fully accept that you are fully justified in your opposition to the capacitive hypothesis. (well actually, you are fully justified in your opposition to the capacitive hypothesis anyway whether you have scientific or observational reasons or not - you have the right to believe what you want and argue what you want - but I would understand your paradigm if I had seen any of the stuff you are saying here)

"Distance of the object has more response than the width of the object."

Yes, this can be true - and this does not contradict capacitive theory - there is an inverse square law on distance and a linear function for area, and the importance of each ratiometrically is going to be determined by the hands position - width becomes more important the closer to the antenna the hand is (close to the antenna changes to the width or "plate overlap" can be really significant, and can produce a greater pitch change proportional to movement than distance - but as the distance increases, adjusting area gives finer control, and at the basse end most distant from the antenna, changes in hand width have only a tiny influence on pitch - the playing  technique must therefore be altered continuously by the thereminist over the playing field) .. this is probably one reason why precise pitch control is easier to do by modifying the hands shape (area) as is incorporated in areial fingering techniques, than by moving the hand closer or further from the antenna.. particularly in the mid field  (and probably also in the near field because its probably easier to implement tiny adjustment of the fingers than to alyer the hands position)

Perhaps your perceptions are influenced by your hearing (well everyones is) and you do not notice changes in pitch the way I do.

Fred.

A few days ago I posted (now deleted) the hypothesis that maybe we lived in different universes and had different realities - or more to the point, that perhaps there was no such thing as "reality" that everything was delusion.....

Fred said: But I have never seen any of the things you describe - I have seen the opposite. And if what you describe is what you are expieriencing, then I fully accept that you are fully justified in your opposition to the capacitive hypothesis.

I have "never" said capacitance is not the main mechanism, why do you always say that?

Also fingering or knuckle extensions are about changing distance to the antenna, not capacitor plate width.

The experiment I mention is not engineer precision parallel hands but close enough, maybe someone with a quality theremin will chime in and verify or dismiss my observation.

Christopher

Fred said: But I have never seen any of the things you describe - I have seen the opposite. And if what you describe is what you are expieriencing, then I fully accept that you are fully justified in your opposition to the capacitive hypothesis.

I have "never" said capacitance is not the main mechanism, why do you always say that?

Christopher,

Dont get angry - You have stated that you believe that capacitive sensing as the mechanism by which theremins operate is a "factoid" and not the truth - This has been on your site for years! And you have re-iterated this belief many times in many ways.. And the "capacitive hypothesis" to which I was referring is that ALL the theremins operation can be desctibed and ecplained FULLY by capacitance..

I went out of my way to emphasise your right to whatever you wanted to believe about theremin operation, but you only extracted the small part of my posting to make it look like I was making this "right" conditional.

And if I am wrong in saying that you oppose this hypothesis, I am truly sorry - but it would help to avoid misunderstanding if you simply stated that you accept this hypothesis or let us know somehow that you had changed your view... But your views and beliefs are not the issue here - you are entitled to them whatever they are, but its annoying and confusing to be attacked for acknowledging your right to views you have expressed strongly before, which you have not advised us that you have changed.

I am sick of this continuous friction -  What do you want me to do? You describe phenomena that are contrary to everything I have ever observed, and you present these in a form that appears "designed" to invoke a response - you are saying things like " the pitch field does not rise more until the second hand passes the first hand" and presenting it as a statement of fact - It may be fact! - But its contrary to everything I have observed ok ? Am I not allowed to present my observations ? Am I to just leave your statements without any response?

Dont you understand that when you post something like the above, those who have similar expieriences are likely to respond, and those who have different expieriences are likely to respond - Those who dont respond either cant be bothered or havent had ever played with a theremin.

But if everyone ignores your postings then someone without expierience of theremins could easily believe that your observations are the only "valid" ones.

"The experiment I mention is not engineer precision parallel hands but close enough"

My observations didnt require engineering precision, right hand 20cm from the antenna, left hand moving from 40cm to 30cm (all aproximately) and I had several semitones of pitch change on a crude little battery one-stick a couple of minutes ago.. No, I never took any measurements, dont have the kit on hand.. all I can say with certainty is that I can hear pitch change when moving one hand at a distance further from the antenna than the other hand,

"maybe someone with a quality theremin will chime in and verify or dismiss my observation."

Nobody can "verify or dismiss" YOUR observations - they are yours! All they can ever do is attempt to replicate your experiments and get either the same results or different ones -

I have occasionaly observed things that couldnt possibly have happened within my concepts of what can happen - I can choose to "interpret" my observations how I wish - regard them as 'mistakes' or "errors of observation" or whatever - I always try to find a rational reason for any anomaly between what I observe and what "can" happen - but sometimes I am not able to - my observation  is still "valid" even if they are the result of sensory distortion due to blood sugar or whatever - its what I saw or heard or expierienced, regardless of whether it has any "reality" - Having lived with these endocrine induced anomalies since my early teens I dont trust the "reality" of any of my observations, but they are my observations and expieriences nonetheless.

I really dont understand how you are getting the behaviour you do from your theremins - I have absolutely no hypothesis to explain how our observations are so different, except the 'metaphysical' ones - I REALLY do think its possible that both you and I are observing the things we do, that there is no such thing as "reality" and that we are both "right" in our "realities"

Fred.

Edit >

Apart from the confusion about what you believe, Your "bubble" idea doesnt work in the capacitive model - by presenting this idea with observations that fit it, you are effectively refuting the capacitive hypothesis, whether you declare your opposition to the capacitive hypothesis or not - So I am fully justified in believing that you reject the capacitive hypothesis, and your "Why do you always say that" in accusatory tone is just a means to change the focus and make a personal attack on me - a common tactic for someone who cannot back up the ideas they present.

Fred I  present observations for other open minded explorers to ponder. The factoid statement on my webpages states from ten years ago, then removed 3 years ago:"

"Beyond 4 inches (10cm) the belief hand capacitance alone controls 
the RF heterodyne theremin pitch is a factoid."

Edit2: The statement refers to my classic analog theremin which has the "pitch/sound" to demonstrate it. For me Pitch encompasses everything needed to arrive at the classic sound, it is not a single factor.

My statement was made five years before you ever arrived on the theremin scene.

There is nothing about the statement that is invalid, hand capacitance cannot work with out conductive surfaces, AC current, voltage, etc. I have no idea why you have a need to derail my opinion when you have yours. If I say something sounding metaphysical on my webpages it is for entertainment value. Electronics is a very uninteresting and dry subject for todays generation and my students. If I tell them the theremin works from magic they would understand where you would argue!

Christopher

Edit: That factoid statement about pitch character was removed several years ago when I realized it upset you, but why? You have a need to edit my webpages, do you do this to others? Back then you were pounding digital completely missing what the theremin is about. I knew you were lost when you tried to tell me that Xor into dual D logic is analog. Again that is your opinion.

"My statement was made five years before you ever arrived on the theremin scene." - Christopher

You see, if you had said "IMO, the belief hand capacitance alone controls the RF heterodyne theremin pitch is a factoid." that would have been fine.

But in my opinion your statement was as wrong 12 years ago as it is now, and "open minded explorers" are best served by having any hypothesis presented as a hypothesis, not falsely as a fact...

Added - >

"If I say something sounding metaphysical on my webpages it is for entertainment value. "

My reference to "metaphysical" had nothing to do with anything on your web site - I was referring to MY comments on matters about reality et al - "Metaphysical" was perhaps a bad choice of words, but I cannot think of a better one - And I do not present these for entertainment or humor, I present these as "real" explanations -

Because really there are only two possible alternative scenarios:

1.) You are somehow, over 12 years continuously playing with theremins, observing behaviour I have never seen from any theremin - and more relevant, not observing behaviour I have seen on every theremin... As in, our realities are different (or something equally weird is going on)

OR

2.) You are fabricating observations and telling fictional stories in order to validate your ideas.

ADDED AFTER THREAD CLOSURE ->

Within the context of 1 above, there is a "real" mechanism that could explain our differing observations.

There are numerous medical conditions which affect perception of pitch and particularly pitch change - these include pitch insensitivity, pitch direction insensitivity, and pitch change hypersensitivity.

Both of us are on daily medications, it is possible that these could also be having a pitch distorting effect on either or both of us.

It all comes down to the fact that we are entirely at the mercy of our sensory apperatus - and if this is different to another persons sensory apperatus in any way, our observation of the same event or stimuli will be different, and the conclusions we draw from such observations are therefore likely to have difference.

Should this thread really be deleted? There was a request of one of the "combattants". Do the others agree?