Pitch Field Linearity II

Posted: 8/13/2020 2:25:18 PM
dewster

From: Northern NJ, USA

Joined: 2/17/2012

So you believe RF is a major factor in Theremin response.  Are you not interested in the truth?

You've taken all this time to put your notions in print and diagrams and such.  If it means that much to you, why don't you take the time to actually prove it to us?  In science you can effectively prove things by presenting reasonable theories, along with experimental data to support them.  The debate then isn't about you or what you believe, but how the data fits the model, and how well the model fits reality.

Misusing the electrical and physics terminology can really hurt your case, so I would caution you to be extra careful with the use of terms you don't fully understand.

Posted: 8/13/2020 3:44:59 PM
oldtemecula

From: 60 Miles North of San Diego, CA

Joined: 10/1/2014


dewster, maybe you had too much coffee this morning. What separates our “beliefs” is I come from a radio theory background and you are more digitally minded.

The theremin is a mini radio transmitter heterodyning with her brother transmitter and in the end the results are beautiful natural music. This is obvious to anyone that understands basic radio principles, which advanced in the same period Lev Sergeyevich Termen was conducting his experiments. Magnetic fields move easily through the air, not electrons.

I constructed a beautiful thread and it seems to threaten your beliefs. Others need to know what I know in order to move forward on Leon Theremin’s journey. They are invited.

Christopher   

www.Hwy79.com

Posted: 8/13/2020 3:53:26 PM
dewster

From: Northern NJ, USA

Joined: 2/17/2012

"I constructed a beautiful thread and it seems to threaten your beliefs."  - oldtemecula

You're just not up for this reality thing, are you?

Posted: 8/13/2020 6:47:41 PM
pitts8rh

From: Minnesota USA

Joined: 11/27/2015

Dewster, I think you took a wrong turn and ended up in a metaphysics class. 

Electromagnetic Fields and Waves 101 is back thataway --------->

Posted: 8/13/2020 10:38:03 PM
dewster

From: Northern NJ, USA

Joined: 2/17/2012

Many points:

1. A 4" square is ~10,000 mm^2, so you're off by two orders of magnitude.
2. The simplistic formula used in that calculator is for mutual C only. 
3. The Theremin LC "sees" total C, which is intrinsic C + mutual C. 
4. Intrinsic C is between the antenna and the universe.
5. Mutual C obviously obviously increases as the hand approaches the antenna.
6. However, intrinsic C actually decreases as the hand approaches the antenna (FEA shows this).
7. Mutual C increases faster than intrinsic C decreases, so total C increases.
8. Total C is nuanced, you have to use finite element analysis (FEA) to model it with any fidelity.
9. Modeling data can be checked with real data, such as from ILYA's automated measurement setup.
10. Once the mathematical model is validated, one can test all sorts of antenna geometries fairly painlessly.
11. Models are simplifications - this is generally a feature, and not a bug.

When dealing with anything complex, having the model more or less match reality means you can probably trust it to build further understanding on.

Posted: 8/14/2020 12:35:33 AM
oldtemecula

From: 60 Miles North of San Diego, CA

Joined: 10/1/2014


dewster, I thank you for the previous correction, I started drinking whiskey so I can think like normal people so mistakes are inevitable. You have your coffee.

This is the kind of exchange as a student I like. I was never the brightest bulb in the room. Pitt do you still live on Duluth, my metaphysical friends tell me you will be experiencing "severe" thunder storms.

Calculated Theory is .1828pf - .0914pf range of 5" to 10" = 0 to .0914pf added to the tank circuit

At 286,000 hz the added change of .0914 pf is = 0 to 50 Hz audio freq change?

At 923,510 hz the added change of .0914 pf is 0 to 470 Hz audio freq change even more interesting?

Maybe i got the decimal misplaced?  My Calculator

Edit The pictures have been re-posted

Christopher


Posted: 8/14/2020 2:39:26 PM
oldtemecula

From: 60 Miles North of San Diego, CA

Joined: 10/1/2014

Many points:1. A 4" square is ~10,000 mm^2, so you're off by two orders of magnitude.2. The simplistic formula used in that calculator is for mutual C only.  3. The Theremin LC "sees" total C, which is intrinsic C + mutual C.  4. Intrinsic C is between the antenna and the universe.5. Mutual C obviously obviously increases as the hand approaches the antenna.6. However, intrinsic C actually decreases as the hand approaches the antenna (FEA shows this).7. Mutual C increases faster than intrinsic C decreases, so total C increases.8. Total C is nuanced, you have to use finite element analysis (FEA) to model it with any fidelity.9. Modeling data can be checked with real data, such as from ILYA's automated measurement setup.10. Once the mathematical model is validated, one can test all sorts of antenna geometries fairly painlessly.11. Models are simplifications - this is generally a feature, and not a bug.When dealing with anything complex, having the model more or less match reality means you can probably trust it to build further understanding on.

Occam's razor : a scientific and philosophical rule that entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily which is interpreted as requiring that the simplest of competing theories be preferred to the more complex or that explanations of unknown phenomena be sought first in terms of known quantities

The way I see it the plate size formulas seem to work at a specific frequency and not equally across the 100 kHz to 1 MHz spectrum? You throw in all these variables trying to justify why the formulas you use do not seem to fully work.

Capacitance rules are rigid where antenna current flow varies with frequency and load. This is why when someone is in the Pitch Field and they touch a grounded object the pitch shifts a bit, how does Hand Capacitance explain that obvious effect?

My main goal is not change anyone's religion, rather with the correct understanding, like Leon Theremin I seek her finest natural voice, you mute her at birth. The Theremin journey begins and ends with her natural sound.

Christopher

Edit: My project today is to better understand unwanted 50/60 Hz influencing the Pitch Antenna circuit. The antenna is showered with rogue Magnetic Fields, do you agree? To get my natural sound I need to better control this. As we both know the antenna base choke does not do it, yet the choke has purpose. I have found only one radical method to do this and it is not using a rod or plate antenna rather a new design of Pitch Antenna. Electrodeum-2

Posted: 8/14/2020 6:06:39 PM
dewster

From: Northern NJ, USA

Joined: 2/17/2012

"The way I see it the plate size formulas seem to work at a specific frequency and not equally across the 100 kHz to 1 MHz spectrum? You throw in all these variables trying to justify why the formulas you use do not seem to fully work."  - oldtemecula

Skin effect could creep and cause some differences in I suppose, but the C response will largely be the same over that frequency range.

Plate formulae only addresses mutual C, and otherwise are too simplistic to use when, say, researching Theremin linearity.  "That Glasgow paper" came up with a very hand-wavy formula - and lacking anything better I ended up relying on it for way too long.  Obtaining real data between my own hand and various antennas finally nailed this down for me.  Performing the "Capactive Clara" Fastcap FEA simulations gave me a deeper understanding of intrinsic vs. mutual that I don't believe is obtainable via physical measurements, and also provided finer differentiation regarding sensitivity and linearity among antenna geometries.  This is a non-trivial problem, there is a lot to learn here, and TW is the place to learn it.  I think one could take the data and come up with a closed form approximation, which would be nice, but it isn't essential in order to use the data directly.  One can work the data backwards through the LC and come up with the total C that the antenna "sees" for that data set, then play with various LC circuit topologies, EQ inductors, etc.

"Capacitance rules are rigid where antenna current flow varies with frequency and load. This is why when someone is in the Pitch Field and they touch a grounded object the pitch shifts a bit, how does Hand Capacitance explain that obvious effect?"

C return through ground (completing the loop of conduction) explains it.  The player is usually only capacitively coupled to ground, and when capacitors are in series (C1 = antenna to hand, C2 = body to ground) the result is smaller than the smallest C: Cseries = 1/(1/C1 + 1/C2 + ...).  So the player touching a ground shorts out C2, leaving full C1, which is like bringing the hand nearer, so this reduces the frequency of the variable oscillator and increases the pitch.

"My main goal is not change anyone's religion..."

There are aesthetic issues that may drive one to - or away from - various aspects of the Theremin, but any Theremin functions on a purely physical plane, regardless of whether one correctly or incorrectly understands how they operate.  One generally needn't abandon one's religion in order to discuss the design and construction of them, and incorrect understanding is an impediment to good design.  I don't see how any of this could be construed as even vaguely controversial (then again, we have the current anti-maskers brigade of dangerous idiots).

"Edit: My project today is to better understand unwanted 50/60 Hz influencing the Pitch Antenna circuit. The antenna is showered with rogue Magnetic Fields, do you agree?"

No.  There are certainly magnetic fields around, but the mains frequency is so low that the photons are incredibly weak.  But we are bathed in a mains electrostatic field, which directly interacts with the Theremin antennae like a quickly flapping hand.

A choke from antenna to ground, with low XL @ 50/60 Hz and high XL @ the oscillation frequency might do it, though that is the case for simple LC Theremins anyway (one end of the coil is directly attached to the antenna, and the other generally has a low impedance path to ground).

An antenna series C won't help either because the intrinsic C is much smaller.  Intrinsic C is actually the way the mains electrostatic field conducts to the Theremin, and I've seen conduction via mutual C as well: the hum increases the closer the hand gets to the antenna.

Posted: 8/14/2020 7:19:13 PM
oldtemecula

From: 60 Miles North of San Diego, CA

Joined: 10/1/2014


dewster said: "No.  There are certainly magnetic fields around, but the mains frequency is so low that the photons are incredibly weak.  But we are bathed in a mains electrostatic field, which directly interacts with the Theremin antennae like a quickly flapping hand."

This tells me we practice in a different church, the photon I may not fully understand as my belief is they occur at extremely high frequencies not low, but they do move through air, you are correct on that point.

We have different views of what is important about the theremin. For me it will always be about her own natural sound whether it is touched or not. I worked with this builder and his wife. This hands on approach with auto vibrato is more theremin like than anything I have heard from your research.

Have someone play this tune, which is also my tune, using your design, does your method make it sound better? There is something special about music that seems human and not robotic.

Christopher


Posted: 8/14/2020 8:31:58 PM
dewster

From: Northern NJ, USA

Joined: 2/17/2012

"We have different views of what is important about the theremin. For me it will always be about her own natural sound whether it is touched or not."  - oldtemecula

As with any musical instrument, aesthetics enter into many aspects of the Theremin, but the physics behind it all isn't one of them.

I worked with this builder and his wife. This hands on approach with auto vibrato is more theremin like than anything I have heard from your research."

It's not bad, but it sounds like canned vibrato to me.  The rate is too uniform, and I'm surprised that you of all people would prefer that to real vibrato.  I ditched the LFO in the D-Lev long ago, there's no particular need for that on a Theremin.

"Have someone play this tune, which is also my tune, using your design, does your method make it sound better? There is something special about music that seems human and not robotic."

I'm not sure what you mean by "your method"?  But I've posted tons of sound clips you don't like, so no.

You must be logged in to post a reply. Please log in or register for a new account.