Goals for a TW Theremin

I thought the TW Theremin was to be a schematic & parts list of a proven, bullet proof design that we could point potential builders to? - dewster

That's what I thought the TW Theremin project was going to be also, and have to say, quite welcome the idea.

I also concur 100% with FredM's thoughts on this matter.

Roy

That's what I think as well.

The fly in the ointment is lots of people that are not equipped to build it will want one.

I hope a way can be found to accommodate them.

I just got an email fom someone - all that was on it was:

"The Complete Theremin "illusion"
This is NOT the $125 Theremin World Theremin
The illusion is Better!"

Thank you for updating me, but I REALLY dont want to know!

In the new year I will pop back and see whether its worth returning to TW. If things arent sorted, I wont come back.

Fred.

AHA! I knew it!

Fred, you are unable to stay away. The mark of the true ADDICT. (Don't feel bad, you're not alone).  LOL

I thought the TW Theremin was to be a schematic & parts list of a proven, bullet proof design that we could point potential builders to? - dewster

Yes, but I hope someone (either from the team designing the schematic or just an external person) takes that schematic and parts list and builds the theremin for a price. I don't mind paying for a good theremin (if I can afford it, of course) but I just don't have the skills for building electronics, or the time to learn it (yeah, I could spend less time doing other things -like actually playing- to learn about electronics, but honestly, I just don't feel especially attracted to that subject).

Of course, I understand that the people doing this also have their preferences and motivations... and perhaps most of you enjoy designing schematics but dont' enjoy building and selling the theremins (or just can't do it due to lack of time, etc). I can relate to that. I just hope that in that case, someone else picks up the schematic and does it :) In any case, having an open-source schematic for a theremin would be really valuable... physical things break, information and knowledge can last for generations especially if it's free.

Charlie has built an excellent working model, but a production ready design is still in the future. Even if he were to build some of his prototypes for players, I believe it would be unfair to expect him to do it without compensation (...) I can see no solution. I hope to hear from business savvy members like Jason. - w0ttm

I don't know, maybe the player could advance some money for the prototype (at least to cover the material costs) in exchange for getting the final version cheaper than the rest of the people?

Or perhaps someone could set up a Kickstarter or Indiegogo campaign to fund the project. I've participated in a couple such campaigns and I'm very happy with what I got from them, although it does take a business-savvy person to design the campaign and set the rewards.

 But to give this issue so much importance to actually stop working? I don't know, in my scale the importance of "having a good theremin created by the community" is 1000/10, while the importance of "preventing other people from using the same/similar name" (especially before any of the projects is complete) is 5/10 at most. - AlKhwarizmi

I thought the TW Theremin was to be a schematic & parts list of a proven, bullet proof design that we could point potential builders to? - dewster

That's what I thought the TW Theremin project was going to be also, and have to say, quite welcome the idea.I also concur 100% with FredM's thoughts on this matter. - Roy

That's what I think as well.The fly in the ointment is lots of people that are not equipped to build it will want one.I hope a way can be found to accommodate them. - w0ttm

Yes, but I hope someone (either from the team designing the schematic or just an external person) takes that schematic and parts list and builds the theremin for a price. - AlKhwarizmi

Folks,

I do understand the frustration expressed above. To me, the "TW Theremin was to be a schematic & parts list of a proven, bullet proof design that we could point potential builders to"  was the most important goal of the project, and as I saw (see) it, this could not be accomplished if there was any confusion anywhere regarding what a "TW theremin" was.

The "name" per-se is unimportant.. But the potential problems which can occur if anyone is free to call any rubbish a "TW Theremin" are, IMO, Huge.

I did not see a problem related to "The fly in the ointment is lots of people that are not equipped to build it will want one." - IMO, the principles of supply and demand would have catered for the demand.. Look at it from a suppliers perspective (whether the supplier is a company or a skilled hobbyist wanting to make some extra money to fund their hobby) - There would be no investment in R+D, no requirement to advertise or establish a reputation with theremins - Everything required (schematics, layouts, parts lists, assembly and debugging info, user evaluations etc) would be there for the taking - They could build theremins and sell them here and on Ebay as "The TW Theremin" or "The TW Theremin V1.0" and attach links to Theremin World so that potential buyers could see exactly what they were getting. I had planned to participate in this, and had interested a local Ebay seller who I buy from (he sells radio parts and kits and constructs modules) in building and selling TW theremins when they were available.

But the above only works if there is ONE TW "Brand" for theremins - You just need a few people to buy some phony rubbish "TW" theremins and the reputation goes down the pan.

Also, If anyone is allowed to sell "TW Theremins" without these being built on the approved designs, then it is likely that the majority of people who will be selling "TW theremins" are those who are producing cheap rubbish and using "TW" to give them cred - Why? - Simply because if there is potential confusion, those who value their credibility wont participate.

One also need to think long-term when you think about theremins - Or at least, I do.. I have no interest in developing any "throw away" products - Minimum useful life of 10 years (which is why, as far as I can, I select standard components likely to be available for many years)..

Ten years from now, when a "TW Theremin 2013 build" turns up on ebay, I would have wanted that to be an unquestionable desirable instrument.. This possibility could only be realized if the "TW Theremin" WAS ALWAYS a "TW Theremin"

The "future" of the TW Theremin Project:

I am no longer participating - This possibly means that the project is not at such risk - I do not think the attack by RS was aimed primarily at TW, I suspect it was aimed more at me. It may be that you can develop a theremin here and have no further problems.. However, although an "attack" is a possible reason for this "event", the other possible reason - fraudulent use of the "TW Theremin" "brand" still remains - and IMO, while there is any possibility that this remains, and while this matter is left in any kind of "limbo", the future for the TW theremin is an illusion (sorry - I hate to say it! - there is nothing illusory about the horrible 60Hz,120Hz and 240Hz tones and the higher frequency foldback tones one hears at -45db from the "illusion" theremin "which is better than the $125 Theremin World Theremin").

For me , the lack of any comment or action from any member of the TW staff gives me a clear message - TW is not up to the job of managing a project like this.

I had thought of starting an open Theremin Project on Element-14, but I have realized that I am not up to the job of managing such a project - Instead I hope to publish my design with full design TM and Copyright protection, and grant manufacturing permission to anyone who complies with the standards I set.

It would have been much more fun and potentially far better for the theremin community if the TW project had evolved from collaborative effort into an instrument we could all have been proud of, and which, due to demand and clear definition, was readily available as kits and completed theremins which people could buy without any doubt or ambiguity - It could have become the new standard, and the core on which theremins of the future were developed.

And I still hope the above happens, but it wont happen unless there is a major business-oriented focus on the realities, and real committment by the TW staff with regard to legal and technical issues. A project like this cannot go anywhere without tight, competent managment.

Fred.

"A project like this cannot go anywhere without tight, competent managment."  - FredM

But I left my telecom job to get away from management! ;-)

I guess I see the TW Theremin more akin to the various loudspeaker projects on the web.  The designer spends time and care selecting the drivers, spends even more time on the enclosure & crossover, and then publishes a short description of their thought process along with plans for others to copy or otherwise draw knowledge from.  Well known (?) designers sometimes collaborate with retail suppliers to produce a kit of parts, which might also be a showcase for a particular brand of drivers.  Anyway, I can't say I've heard of anyone misappropriating these designs - I suppose it could happen (nothing under the sun is 100% original) but the loudspeaker market is something of a niche, and few if any will be able to make a living, let alone get rich, by producing any kind of product.  The components themselves are rather pricy, and the audio impact of better | more of them is an exercise in diminishing returns.  So manufacture falls to those who have a ready source of slave labor, and who are willing pare things down to the point where the hoi polloi are OK with the performance / price ratio.

Bob M's stuff gets copied, even Theremin had to start out with at least some elements of someone else's oscillator.  The really good circuits get copied over and over for good reason, and for me the possibility of finding those is all the fun.

At the very least we could use something to point people to, even if it's a rather basic starting point.  Otherwise there will be a continual "I found this Glasgow Theremin schematic on the web" kind of thing.  Let's do our part to get new builders on the right path from the git go.

'At the very least we could use something to point people to, even if it's a rather basic starting point.  Otherwise there will be a continual "I found this Glasgow Theremin schematic on the web" kind of thing.  Let's do our part to get new builders on the right path from the git go.'

This could be something as simple as a rating system for old designs we already have . The Glasgow Theremin would have no 'stars' or 'rods' or whatever.

The really sad thing is that a NEW, open-source theremin project appears to dead in the water.
Without Fred, I really dont see this project going anywhere.  Not that other members cant do it, just that they probably wont.  If you look at past postings, Fred has been consistently one of the most generous members, sharing his wealth of knowledge and enthusiasm on all things technical and theremin. ( Has anyone ever seen a post of Fred's that is less than three paragraphs? )

"The really sad thing is that a NEW, open-source theremin project appears to dead in the water.Without Fred, I really dont see this project going anywhere.  Not that other members cant do it, just that they probably wont.  If you look at past postings, Fred has been consistently one of the most generous members, sharing his wealth of knowledge and enthusiasm on all things technical and theremin. ( Has anyone ever seen a post of Fred's that is less than three paragraphs? )" - Chobbs

Thanks Charlie ;-) .. Yeah, even posts in which I say nothing useful are usually more than 3 paragraphs! - I really envy people who have the ability to make short meaningful posts, And GREATLY admire Thierry's abilities here - With English not being his 1st language, he is amazing!

I do hope your "Without Fred, I really dont see this project going anywhere." is not the truth - If the effort is distributed and managed by the official TW Theremin engineer (Thierry) then my lack of direct participation in the project should only have a minor impact.. I do not plan  to dissapear, I  still intend to be contributing generally - The only change is that I will not be directly involved in the TW Theremin project... I see this project as something which has the potential to damage any participants reputation if it is not managed at a higher level than I have the power to do.

"Bob M's stuff gets copied, even Theremin had to start out with at least some elements of someone else's oscillator.  The really good circuits get copied over and over for good reason, and for me the possibility of finding those is all the fun.At the very least we could use something to point people to, even if it's a rather basic starting point.  Otherwise there will be a continual "I found this Glasgow Theremin schematic on the web" kind of thing.  Let's do our part to get new builders on the right path from the git go." - Dewster

Bob's circuits and the entire EW get copied, this is true - But when one buys an Etherwave, one knows one is not buying something with a couple of 555 timers in it. There is no desire from me to limit access to TW theremin circuits or prevent any manufacturer from using these freely in their theremins. My issue is with rubbish theremins (or any theremin not complying with the TW specification) being called the TW theremin, and this threat not being addressed.

Perhaps the real problem is that I had bigger hopes and expectations for the TW Theremin than anyone else did - I wanted it to be a reference work, and I wanted it to be a product which was manufactured - I wanted the design and development environment to be tempting for potential developers and manufacturers - a "platform" by which designers could present their ideas and see these realised.. Somewhere that seed ideas had the chance to grow - And this was starting to happen - I present some schematics, and within weeks, long before I have built anything, there are photos and waveforms and adaptions to the design.

And the above can still continue - We can sit 'round developing stuff and getting excited about it.. But "we" (the technical) are a small minority of TW .. The aim should, I believe, be to facilitate instruments which can be supplied to the majority of TW members who cannot understand what we are talking about and who cannot make their own theremins - We are providing a source of technical reference for "our kind" AND developing a product for a hungry market.. And, IMO, the TW Brand is ESSENTIAL if we want quality manufacturers to jump in to fill the demand for what we develop.

I am not someone who complains "its not fair" - I know that life aint fair, that "fairness" is a delusion.. But the instinct towards "fairness" is still there - And when I see something which is "In yer face" unfair - whether I am the target or someone else is - my buttons get really pushed. When a member of TW (regardless of his mental health issues) who has contributed nothing to the TW theremin, makes moves to hog it for himself, I get angry.. When I see such little reaction from other TW members, I lose heart and think TW aint worth the effort.

Fred.

I now see and understand why you attach so much importance to the brand.

But I think the little reaction for TW members that you mention is probably because most people didn't think dropping the initials on a website with no real theremin being sold at the moment was a real threat. It was just a potential threat, that could become real in the future or (probably) not.

I'm sure if someone actually started selling non-TW theremins with the TW brand, everyone here would stand by the project. I know I would... I'm no lawyer to take legal measures, but I'd tell everyone which theremin was the real TW theremin.

I hope you reconsider and keep participating at the same level as before, your description of goals "to facilitate instruments which can be supplied to the majority of TW members who cannot understand what we are talking about and who cannot make their own theremins" is precisely what many of us need - especially if they are good instruments, which I take for granted! :)