Moog Theremini Owners

(dont read this post if you believe the theremini is a real theremin, and / or you get offended when someone says it is not a theremin and cannot be played like a theremin )

Some really valid points IMO, Gordon:

"Not a very theremin-like approach, but the theremini isn't a theremin, so that's OK."

So the first "mistake" might be to think it is a theremin, and try to play it like a theremin.. And in this context, is there really any point in any "help" that can be provided (particularly in terms of playing) by folks on TW .. what can we offer.. ? We are into theremins here - into playing theremins or building theremins or designing theremins .. None of these has any real bearing on the theremini .. Its a bit like going to a forum on grand pianos to get advice on configuring a Moog Modular, or reading instructions for playing a violin when you have a guitar... Nothing we can say directly relates to their instrument - none of the playing techniques apply at all.. A person with a theremini could not do what the tutorial video supplied with the Moog EW instructs, they could not play their instrument the way Thomas Grillo's theremin lessons show.

The theremini manual, on the last page, makes reference resources such as Clara Rockmore's "Method for Theremin" - NONE of the references given here have ANY relevance to the theremini - NONE of the techniques in any of these apply in ANY way to the theremini.

Because the theremini is NOT a theremin! Bob Moog defined one of the essential  characteristics of a theremin as being its instant response to player movement. The theremini might hold a record (?) for being the slowest  and most unresponsive musical toy ever produced, or at least the slowest and most unresponsive electronic musical "thing" ever produced.

All we can HONESTLY say is "its not a theremin, we cant help you - if you want to play a theremin, you need to buy a THEREMIN "

"The theremini also loosens a significant restriction inherent in the theremin - it has a fair old number of timbres."

So does a small electronic keyboard - you can buy a modern digital synth with a far larger library of timbres for the same as a theremini, and if you buy second hand, can get a synth almost infinitely superior in terms of sonic ability (for <£100 you can buy a Roland D110 or any of many good modules now flooding the 2nd hand market, and if you need it, a small MIDI keyboard for <£50) and these dont bring a crippling 100ms latency and consequential unplayability with them. Or you could buy Animoog for your Iphone or tablet - could probably buy an iphone and animoog for less that a theremini, and the iphone would probably be more playable!

What is the advantage of the theremin over a keyboard based synth? Only ONE - FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION! .. Lose that freedom, and the keyboard based synth is not only nearly infinitely more useful, but an instrument using a slow proximity interface which restricts the player to far less freedom of expression than a keyboard / wheels synth does, can be seen to be nearly infinitely useless!

" (And it still has a theremin volume loop, so it still has half the magic!)"

I wonder what the volume loop latency is? ;-) .. Oh, im just joking here - volume latency isn't nearly as important - but if it was in the order of 100ms it might be competing with (or perhaps even much worse than) the early tube-warm-up theremins that were improved at Clara's request because she found even latency on the volume loop too restrictive.

"Don't stand there complaining that you don't know where to go, pick an arbitrary direction and head of like you know what you're doing. And if that direction doesn't bear fruit, head off in another. I bet you'll find something good and probably not at all what you anticipated. "

You may not know where to go, and you may find a wonderful musical direction  - but there is one direction that is certainly closed - forget about playing it like a theremin!  (and its probably best to forget about "playing" it - really its a thing you program with the scale you want, wave your arms about, and it generates the musac - you really have only extremely limited control over what notes/pitches it plays, or when these are played)

Fred.

"I'm feeling a little sorry for "SapereAude" who started this thread in the hope that it would not turn negative and end up chasing him away. I fear that it has done just that!" - Coalport

Just seen who SapereAude is - I really dont feel bothered by offending someone whose first post on TW was : "This thread is so fun to read.  So much snobbery and outright balderdash!" and his second posting  to dismiss my detailed reply asking for a single example of any "balderdash"  with "Oh, pish-posh!" is the sort of person who has the right to then demand exclusive "ownership" of a thread - he is not really interested in anything other than promoting his toy and berating those who say why its not usable as a theremin. I dont think losing him will adversely affect the quality of TW membership.

I connected my Theremini for the first time today to my midi setup.  All that was needed was a Mini USB to USB cable that I had from one of my DSLR cameras. I connected it to my Windows 7 PC and it automatically found and loaded the Theremini driver.

I used the MIDI STATUS display in MIDI-OX at first to make sure the Theremini's Control Change (CC) messages were being sent to my synthesizers from both the pitch antenna and the volume antenna.  I found that it was not possible to assign the same CC message to both antennas. There were a few control change adjustments that seemed to be best for certain synthesizer patches with Volume (CC7) and Bright (CC74) being the most useful.  

I used MID-OX's SysEx scratchpad to send a Sysex Preset Name Change as described in the owner's manual. I thought it would change the Preset, but all it did was change the "name" of the Preset, not the Preset (sound). Has anyone seen a MIDI Implementation Chart for the Theremini?  I just sent an email to Moog support asking for one.

Gary

For those of you with IPads, Moog has just released the initial version of their free software editor for the Theremini...

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/theremini-advanced-software/id929763039?mt=8

It includes a bunch of new presets (even some from my own personal library).

Here's a link to a nice recent review...

http://www.keyboardmag.com/gear/1183/moog-theremini-reviewed/49033

And a video of someone in a music store playing actual music on one, which of course absolutely cannot be done if you read the babble that some self proclaimed experts post incessantly around here.

http://youtu.be/C8NBfCtTygA

OF COURSE you can play the Theremini, and use it in a bunch of creative ways. For those who actually own one, come to the Moog Forum or Muff Wiggler, or just about anywhere else but here. Truth and useful, helpful information is much more likely to be spoken there.

Cheers!

This basically lets you control all the parameters of the Theremini from your iPad. Let's you edit and create new sounds, gives you an editor/librarian. Just the the beginning, I assume, of Moog's plan to unlock the potential of the Theremini.

IMHO - They just significantly ramped up the fun factor of this new instrument.

Rich

"For those of you with IPads, Moog has just released the initial version of their free software editor for the Theremini..."  - Synthguy

Looks OK I suppose, but from the screens it only covers the CC MIDI parameters listed in the manual.  The full power of Animoog seems to remain under lock and key.  Or perhaps the implementation is sparse and there are no remaining features to modify - Moog does say it is "based" on the Animoog engine.

"Here's a link to a nice recent review..."

Industry "review".  All the "nice" that money can buy.

"And a video of someone in a music store playing actual music on one..."

I could recognize the tune but that was kinda painful.

"... which of course absolutely cannot be done if you read the babble that some self proclaimed experts post incessantly around here."

Serious players around here have declared it rather unplayable.  I personally think all kinds of things could be played on it, but the latency will likely be noticed for certain types of playing, and the calibration routine as described in the manual yields a highly non-linear pitch field. 

If you are trying to get everyone's goat you need to try harder.  Why are you taking every negative thing pointed out about the Theremini so personally?

I must say Synthguy, your Theremini review over on Amazon reads just like standard industry hype.  Are you here in a professional capacity?

I think that what the "serious players" should own up to here is that when they make these blanket statements like "unplayable", "unusable linearity", "can only make drone sounds", can't be used by synthesists", what they are REALLY saying is "BY ME", and quit trying to include the rest of us in their inability or unwillingness to come to grips with what is essentially a very cool new instrument.

The editor does use all of the CC links that have been available since the instrument was launched, but I'll bet that not many people here or elsewhere have bothered (or were able) to whip up a simple platform to make their own edited presets (I did, but I love that kinda stuff). The editor now makes it easy for everyone, as well as providing a librarian, a bunch of new free presets, and the ability to share them between like minded individuals. Sweet!

I myself kinda liked that guys performance...can you post one of you doing a better job on what you deem to be a "real" Theremin?

 I posted it because it shows someone doing the impossible...playing it like a Theremin (even using those super cool wiggly finger shapes!) actually choosing the notes he wanted to play, using vibrato, overcoming the huge "unplayable" latency ( not noticeable here  at all, oddly enough) and I get the feeling that this was someone who just started playing around with it. Inconceivable!

Glad you like my review at Amazon, I'd be happy to repost it here if you think that would be useful...it touches on a lot of what is not being discussed here, I think.

And no, I don't work for Moog, if that's what you're hinting at (wouldn't that be nice!), I'm just a guy who loves synths... A Synthguy!

Like my Grandma used to say,

"You'd complain if they hung you with a new rope!"   ;)

Not trying to get anyone's goat (?!!?!!?), but hoping to spread some sorely needed truth to those here who might listen. I suspect that there might be a few out there.....

But, I also sincerely realize that this might not be the right forum for that sort of thing, so I apologize to everyone if that's indeed the case.

" http://youtu.be/C8NBfCtTygA And a video of someone in a music store playing actual music on one, which of course absolutely cannot be done if you read the babble that some self proclaimed experts post incessantly around here." - Synthguy

Really? I never heard any music - never even heard any musac.

That was the best you could find?

That fact alone probably confirms that the theremini is unplayable more than anything else.. The fact that Moog, with all the contacts they have with musicians, hasn't been able to produce ONE video of ANYONE actually playing the thing!

The best use of the theremini that I have yet heard was Gary's music to accompany his video. This was fitting, but it wasn't theremin - it was pitch quantized scale locked soundscaping.

The theremini has a place - but that place isnt anything to do with playing a theremin.. Its a place that will make a load of people real happy, and may make some interesting soundscape backings for real music..

How to emulate a theremini (and create a more interesting soundscape than the theremini can):

Take a random voltage generator and the voltage from a pitch-bend wheel..

Run these voltages into a summer, and the output from this into a CV quantizer set to the scale you want..

Drive quantizer output into a CV synth..

And you get those lovely swirly S+H soundscapes... Oh, you cannot "play" it, but this doesnt matter... What comes out is in a pleasing musical scale.

Then (or simultaneously if playing live) you play a synth 'lead' while the randomized sequence is running, and create music that way.

-----------------------------------

Hell - call yourself "Synthguy" ? .. We were doing this back in the 70's and 80's before digital synths spoiled our fun !

The theremini is a neat encapsulation of that ONE synthesizer configuration - Use it in quantized mode for the soundscape, use it in slugged "theremin" mode to sweep effects which are not pitch critical, then add an instrument you can ACTUALLY PLAY for the lead.

The theremini is great for the soundscape.

BUT YOU CANNOT PLAY TUNES OR "LEADS" ON IT - AS YOU HAVE SO CLEARLY DEMONSTRATED!

"come to the Moog Forum or Muff Wiggler, or just about anywhere else but here. Truth and useful, helpful information is much more likely to be spoken there."

"Truth" ? .... You dont want the truth!  You want to believe you are playing a theremin, you want to believe you are making music. You want to believe the marketing hype.

You want to believe THE LIES even though the FACTS show that technically the theremini is unplayable, that Bob Moog's definition of a theremin completely excludes any possibility that the theremini might be a theremin, and that EVERY renowned thereminist who has tried to play the theremini has been unable to do so.

THE THEREMINI IS NOT A THEREMIN - It may be musically satisfying and fun to some, it may have musical uses .. but its not a theremin!

Fred.

"I myself kinda liked that guys performance...can you post one of you doing a better job on what you deem to be a "real" Theremin?" - Synthguy

LOL ;-)

I was wrong - You can play "tunes" on the theremini... But only if you are completely and utterly TONE DEAF! (trouble is that you are at a big advantage - others dont share this, so wont recognize the 'tunes' you play, or will find that what you "play" makes their teeth hurt..)

(advice - get your hearing tested mate!  ;-)

"I think that what the "serious players" should own up to here is that when they make these blanket statements like "unplayable", "unusable linearity", "can only make drone sounds", can't be used by synthesists", what they are REALLY saying is "BY ME", and quit trying to include the rest of us in their inability or unwillingness to come to grips with what is essentially a very cool new instrument." - Synthguy

1/10th of a second to respond to movement and settle the pitch on the new target.

Forget about linearity and the other issues - there is this one big elephant in the room that needs to be removed before the instrument is playable in any dynamic theremin way.. If latency was reduced to 10ms or less then the theremini could be played as a theremin - but 100ms is difficult for any instrument, but utterly impossible for an instrument which depends on audio feedback to the player for pitch correction.

This is not a "some people can play it" situation. If the theremin was the most difficult instrument to play before the theremini, the theremini has now jumped up and overtaken that claim probably by an order of magnitude!

And this for something advertised as easier to play!

Its easier to make "on key" sounds using quantizing, but without real-time control of the pitch (as in, having a 1/10th second latency) , this is only usable for soundscapes.

Moog needs to state openly that the theremini cannot be played like a theremin, and that playing tunes on it is not "what its about".

But hiring lackeys to post their deceptions on forums (if this is what they are doing, as I suspect) just makes matters worse.

Moog needs to show that "serious players" are wrong - they could easily do this if the "serious players" were wrong... All it would take was ONE you tube video showing someone actually playing the goddamn theremini in "theremin mode" to an acceptable standard with a recognized "test" piece of reasonable speed and complexity..

But they cant - They cant even get anyone to play the simpler classic theremin pieces, or any other tunes for that matter.

IF we are wrong, Moog could prove it in less than a week.

We are not wrong. That is why Moog has not been able to argue - they are depending on muff-wiggler and other sites to carry their message.. I am passionate that there is at least one place on the WWW that the reality of the theremini is disclosed, and at this time the only place on the WWW where you will find an UNBIASED and HONEST technical / playing  evaluation of the theremini is here on TW.

Fred. 

If one has fun to do FX and whatever you may like on the theremini that is fine by me ~ but when you play it precisely, any kind of noticeable latency will be a joy killer for any precision thereminist.

"If one has fun to do FX and whatever you may like on the theremini that is fine by me ~ but when you play it precisely, any kind of noticeable latency will be a joy killer for any precision thereminist." - Amey

I agree completely - Sell the thing for what it is, not as a theremin (which it isnt). Its not only " precision thereminists " who will be adversely affected by the Moog scam - The biggest issue is that an even more unplayable thing than the theremin has been put on the market, with the lie that its easier to play - This thing steers people away from making music by having automated pitch correction / scaling.. But even this cannot be "played"

So educationally, people are steered into believing that they have a theremin (which they dont) that "theremin mode" is impossible to play (which it is) but this thing in "theremin mode" is "easier" (or at least no more difficult) than a "normal" theremin (which its not - theremini "theremin" mode is hugely / impossibly more difficult ).. All incentive to get a real theremin is reduced or destroyed, and they are left with a soundscape machine which is nothing like a theremin.

It may be fun, it may be musically useful, it may be the dogs bolloks - but it should be marketed as something other than anything theremin related, in the way that the Alesis Air FX was. To market it as a theremin is a LIE!

Just came across this interview with Bob Moog:

"The Transistors: Your passion was born since when you were a teen-ager. When you were 14 years-old you built your first Theremin. For what reason you build Theremins still today?

Moog: For the same reason that a dog licks his balls. Do you know why a dog licks his balls? The answer is: because he can.

Please forgive me if you think that my answer is rude, but it is the truth. I know how to build theremins. I build very good theremins. That's why I still build theremins. "

And it really saddened me -

"I know how to build theremins. I build very good theremins. That's why I still build theremins." - Bob Moog

To see how Moog Inc, With no regard for Bob's legacy or memory, produces a "thing" which isnt a theremin, cannot be played like a theremin, and is hugely inferior to a theremin - But they call this crap a theremin and put  Bob's "Moog" name on it!

Shame!