Moog Theremini Owners

@Dewster Well he doesn't even know the history of the instrument. Didn't even bother to look it up. He claims Leon Theremin invented it in 1929...

" Why is every random gear geek suddenly 100% qualified to review a Theremin?" - Dewster

Because everyone who is qualified to review a theremin finds that the theremini is unusable as a theremin. Moog needs positive reviews almost as badly as they need a demonstration of someone actually playing the thing like a theremin.

They have no chance of anyone actually playing the thing anything like a theremin.

They have no chance of a positive review from someone qualified to do such a review.

All they have is "random gear geeks"

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And its only because its touted as a "theremin" that the scam works - If it had been a synthesiser with 1/10th second latency, people would have laughed - because people know how synths are supposed to perform.. But because people are mostly ignorant about how real theremins perform, they cant immediately identify that the theremini is not a theremin.

Theremins respond more quickly than keyboards, they are in fact instantaneous to the degree that movement actually changes the shape of individual waves. Theremins give a freedom of control not available from any other electronic musical instrument.. They are the fastest, lowest latency electronic musical instrument ever made, and this is the most important factor that makes a theremin a theremin, and this is why true heterodyning theremins (where the heterodyned oscillators directly produce the sound, as Lev invented) have 'ruled'.

Going digital one can possibly get fast enough to emulate a theremins behavior to some degree, but to have any hope of doing this latency of much less than 10ms is required. - Its not like I am arguing about pedantic "niceties" when saying the theremini is unplayable as a theremin - 100ms is unplayable for probably more than 95% of any possible musical role.

Having a thread to discuss the theremini's musical potential is nonsense if the realities of the interface are swept under the carpet.

EVERYTHING that makes a theremin a theremin is completely lost in the theremini, and added to this the latency is AFAIK worse than ANY electronic musical instrument on the market.. Oh, at the bass end, one can have long latency from large organ pipes, but this is volume 'latency' or slow attack - The only instrument that has long pitch latency is a synthesiser with portamento turned way up to 100ms.. But these are playable because the pitch goes to the target interval of the key being played, does not overshoot, does not need the player to twiddle with the pitch bend knob to tune the note!

Fred.

"what Bob Moog's thoughts are from the great beyond. "

Have no access (AFAIK) to anything "beyond" - Have access to what Bob stated frequently when he was with us on this mortal plane - And what I say is from those words. I dont believe that Bob gives a damn about anything anymore - I strongly suspect that "bob" only "lives" in the memory of those who knew him or think they did - and only "lives" in the extensive collection of interviews and tutorials and designs and documentation he left us.. But he left more than most do - And in this sense is a lot more "present" than most.

"Deriving" a sense of how he would "react", and what he would "approve" based on what he left us and what he said (often giving really personal insights into his persona) is all we can do - And on some matters there can be no doubt, because he spelled things out with engineering precision. And the instantaneous nature of the theremin is one of those matters he absolutely defined.

Good catch Jesper!  That sent me over to the Wiki on Theremin (the instrument) which seems quite nice and fairly complete.  Invented in 1920 and patented in 1928.  Was it re-invented in 1929 or something?  Maybe the reviewer is a super genius and knows facts the rest of us aren't privy to?

Another blurb from the the Keyboard review: "There’s no question that the Theremini is the ideal first theremin if you’re looking for one and sonically flexible enough to be the last one you’ll ever need."  Talk about hutzpa! 

All Keyboard (and Sweetwater, Musician's Friend, etc.) reviews in a nutshell: "I can barely play the thing and know next to nothing about the history of it or anything, but you can take my professional word to the bank, this right here is the instrument you want!"

These guys obviously get paid on a per kudo basis.  It's really kind of embarrassing.

From what I see the original post was a simple request for people who have Thereminis that want to engage in a positive discussion about the instrument to get together in a forum - despite all the negative discussion to get together and talk about the instrument. I was happy to see that and wanted to participate. Then the thread quickly got side-tracked from its original intent.

Divorced from all this, the theremin community needs to realize that it is in everyone's best interest for the Theremini to be successful (even by the way if you plan to be a competitor as competition sparks innovation). I think Moog gets the gist of the discussion and they are addressign things. Not two months after I asked for more sounds did an app come out that let's me basically program it like a synth instead of relying on a few fixed sounds. In truth, they were already working on it I found out. Kudos!!! Shows dedication to their product. Shows they are commited to improvement.

If the Theremini is successful, don't you think it will help foster the theremin market? Don't you think it will free up $ for Moog to come out with new Theremins? Without Moog, the theremin world in general would be in very sorry shape. What real alternatives are there out there? Who is really more committed to the theremin market?

Folks. Let's stop the diatribe and give Moog some time and see what develops. Let's help Moog here. Sure there may be issues, but it's in our best interest to work hand in hand with Moog and solve them.

Rich 

rich,

that ipad app you have mentioned, is it the same like this?: http://numericalaudio.com/theremidi/ i really would like to hear more from a theremidi betatester. Edit: does anybody play it through a ipad, animoog or any app. does midi work good?

"Not two months after I asked for more sounds did an app come out that let's me basically program it like a synth instead of relying on a few fixed sounds. In truth, they were already working on it I found out. Kudos!!! Shows dedication to their product. Shows they are commited to improvement."  - rkram53

I believe the patch editor is only for the iPad?  It seems to only be obtainable via iTunes (and there is no way in hell I'm installing that on my PC).  In a product like the Theremini which doesn't allow for all internal parameter manipulation via the front panel, the very least I expect is a directly downloadable editor that runs on a variety of popular platforms.  So I guess I'm out in the cold and not really feeling the love.

"If the Theremini is successful, don't you think it will help foster the theremin market? Don't you think it will free up $ for Moog to come out with new Theremins? Without Moog, the theremin world in general would be in very sorry shape. What real alternatives are there out there? Who is really more committed to the theremin market?" 

At this point the Theremini stands as yet another black eye on the digital Theremin market (a market quite dear to me).  Moog Inc. didn't do their homework on the front end, and who knows if they are even considering lifting a finger to fix the glaring issues (low gestural bandwidth, lack of setup touch-up, etc.) in the near future.  Outside of a bug fix or something cosmetic, my bet is no new firmware, but I would be very happy to be wrong, and I would hugely appreciate it if Moog Inc. could deign to reveal their upgrade / fix plans and timetable to us, as mine is gathering dust and I'm kind of itching to sell it to free up some cash.

"Folks. Let's stop the diatribe..."

Great, while we're at it let's also stop the pollyanna talk and personal attacks on people who don't see the Theremini glass as completely full (not saying that you are doing that Rich).

"If the Theremini is successful, don't you think it will help foster the theremin market? Don't you think it will free up $ for Moog to come out with new Theremins?"

No, I dont think it will. Moog does not appear to have any designer/s capable of designing theremins, and if the theremini does make money, they will follow the money... Why waste it on developing theremins which take a lot of design effort and skills they dont have, and dont make money? - If they make money by putting crap on the market, then they will continue to put crap on the market.

"Without Moog, the theremin world in general would be in very sorry shape."

Without Bob Moog, the above would be true. Moog inc however is in the process of undoing (or at least devaluing / soiling)  Bobs legacy.

What real alternatives are there out there? Who is really more committed to the theremin market?"

Without Moog inc dumping a crap digital toy on the market, good digital theremins would have appeared and been evaluated ON MERIT. The Moog brand (and the reputation created by BOB) has allowed this toy to get to market bypassing the filters which would have damned it had anyone else tried to put this rubbish on the market.

Oh - I may be wrong about that last.. Perhaps the reality is that the theremini is a better toy than the theremin could ever be - Perhaps the truth is that people dont want to learn or master any instrument, they want instant gratification and the phony kudos that comes with being able to wave their arms about and pretending to "play" a "theremin".

Perhaps someone else bringing toy "theremin" to market to amuse the gamers and wanna-be's would have been a hit even if it didnt have "Moog" on the plastic.

as for "Sure there may be issues, but it's in our best interest to work hand in hand with Moog and solve them."

- In all such "mediation" situations, working "hand in hand" can only happen if there is mutual respect. The theremin community has for many years given Moog inc this respect, and been treated like DIRT by Moog! - Essential modifications to the EW and EWP have been presented to Moog and ignored, Our expectations of a new theremin to fill the EWP hole were raised, but the new product was a guitar!

But worst is now, because Moog inc is lying to us and treating us like idiots (60 microseconds latency! That is just the clincher for me - insulting to everyone who has noticed the latency.. Moog KNOWS there is intolerable latency, and just lie about it!) - which if we continue to grovel to them, we are!

Moog is "committed" to a market, but they have zero commitment to the "theremin market" - Oh, they will screw the theremin community for whatever they can get out of us, but we really have no major importance to them.. the new itheremin and isynthesiser and iapp market is where they are going...... Real irony is that through the years when digital synths trashed our analogue industry, Bob Moog held out and weathered the storm... Now, as analogue makes a resurgence, Moog inc switches to producing digital crap, despite the fact that digital doesnt need to be crap! 

This thread was originally intended for Theremini owners to have a positive discussion about their instruments.

I suggest we move all the other stuff somewhere else so a Theremini owner has a decent place to have a discussion without wading through 10 pages of negativity. Amazing that everyone is so quick to criticize the one company in the best position to further their goals instead of trying to help them.

I'm trying to be a rational voice here to foster everyone coming to TW and feeling they have a place to engage in conversation that can help them better use their instruments. If you want to start an "I Hate the Theremini" thread - ok go for it. But why can't this thread be a place for a positive discussion on how to get the best out of the Theremini? My goal is to make music with my Theremini and would like to talk to others who are trying to do the same.

Rich

for pc users.:https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=102949&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=80

wathever "soon" means. bonne nuit .-)

xtheremin8 wrote:

that ipad app you have mentioned, is it the same like this?: http://numericalaudio.com/theremidi/ i really would like to hear more from a theremidi betatester. Edit: does anybody play it through a ipad, animoog or any app. does midi work good?

No, you want to go here:

http://www.moogmusic.com/products/apps/theremini-advanced-software-editor

This is a great tool for Theremini owners that lets you control your Theremini through the iPad (I believe there will be versions for other hosts but best to contact Moog and ask about what other platforms they are planning on supporting). I'm an iPad lover so this works great for me. It's not the Animoog app. It's a librarian/editor for the Theremini. Indispensable tool if you are a Theremini owner.

Anyway, it lets you edit patches in the librarian and download to the theremini, save libraries, share libraries with other Theremini owners, etc. You can experiment with things you can't on the front panel of the Theremini. Choose from a variety of waveforms - sine, triange, supersaw, a variety Animoog based sounds and an Etherwave wavetable. Then you can adjust scan parameters, filter controls etc. You can change all the scale, root and pitch correction settings and change the delay settings, change ranges, transpositions, etc. All Theremini manuals are also included. 

It does not play the Theremini. That's your job.

I'm off to play with it some more right now. My Theremini is calling me. :-)

Rich