Life, the universe, time, space, fate, folly, and everything else..

I felt that Peter and I (or I and Peter - yeah, I am mostly to blame, LOL ;-) have taken the hijack of the Therelympics thread too far already.. So I am hoping to move the discussion from here to here ->

Yeah - this was SERIOUSLY off topic, but I hope that the "headline" is broad enough now that it will be impossible for this thread to wander out of its "remit" ..

If you can find something to discuss which doesnt somehow fit into : "Life, the universe, time, space, fate, folly, and everything else.. " you get a gold medal! ;-)

... Ok - Now to think of something to add.. but as that means going back to the other thread to remind myself how the hijack there was progressing, I will be back later.. WATCH THIS SPACE ! LOL ;-)

Fred.

Warning: The postings in this thread may have absolutely nothing to do with theremins - will probably be more in the domain of philosophy, metaphysics and other "fictions" - may touch on "real" science, but could be about anything.. Contributors to, and readers of the contents of this thread do so entirely at their own risk ;-)

.... Badabig-bang!

Warning: This posting is certainly not related to theremins in any way that I can see.. It is probably more in the domain of philosophy, metaphysics and other fictions! Those with their feet firmly on the ground (or who think their feet are firmly on the ground, LOL) may find this stuff annoying or disturbing or just plain stupid.. ;-)

" The realisation that, even though inaccessible, other universes where one has a different hand dealt to one may (and probably do / will) exist , probably takes the edge off the desperation which might otherwise overwhelm one. " - Fred

"The problem with this is that there are, by the same principle, universes in which one has been dealt an even worse hand than the one that one holds in this universe. As for all those "other" Freds & Peters living in alternate universes (and there may be an infinite number of them living in an infinite number of universes), they are not you and I, so we can take no consolation from the notion that we are somehow doing better somewhere other than where we are.

Perhaps the ancient advaitists were right, and a Universe of infinite universes where all possibilities that CAN exist, DO exist, is simply an illusion. Perhaps this spectacular multitude is in fact only One.

This is perhaps an even more daunting prospect because from the point of view of the One, Pete & Fred don't exist." - Coalport

The above "exchange" raises some "issues" for me, which are far from simple.. particularly the: "they are not you and I, so we can take no consolation from the notion that we are somehow doing better somewhere other than where we are."

I agree that "we can take no consolation from the notion" is probably true - but I am not sure about the "they are not you and I" - Primarily because I have no idea about what "you and I" actually are!

Let me illustrate my "problem" with a little "SF" story:

Captain Mor&K of the starship Hunter was buzzing - After two decades of searching, the Genesig scanner had identified the profile of the most wanted villain in the universe, and they were now approaching the location (a small water world third from an unremarkable star, Sol). All the legal work was sorted, judgment had been passed, and because of the danger posed by the villain they had been hunting (A mutant known as Colapipe, from the Orion sector, who had decimated several galaxies simply using his psychokinetic powers) instant remote dematerialization was to be Colapipe's fate.

The Hunter was now above the source of the Genesig, and they prepared their equipment and waited for a moment when there was no other local Genesigs so that the dematerialization could be executed without collateral damage.

The Hunter was crewed by entities selected from several galaxies for, primarily, their reaction speed and rapid and efficient thought processing - these natural abilities were boosted with computational implants and telekinesis amplifiers, giving them the ability to undertake in milliseconds what would take a human of the planet they were approaching, several hours or even days - if they were even able to undertake the task at all.

The chance for a "clear shot" came, and Mor&K initiated the dematerialization of Colapipe.

The switch in the mouse button that FredM was operating was less than a micrometer from initiating a "send" of his longwinded posting to TW, when FredM vanished.

On board the Hunter, a few moments (probably a few hundred microseconds) of jubilation were replaced by horror when engineer Kr&K anounced that the particle beam analysis of the dematerialized "Colapipe" showed that the dematerialized entity had almost no resemblence to Colapipe at all - They had zapped the wrong being!

Rapid analysis showed that Colapipe had been "hosting" a replica Genesig in some as-yet unknown way, in the locus of the unfortunate, now dematerialized entity. Rapidly the science crew reconstituted all the data available - Everything (matter and energies, including most electrical, magnetic and electrostatic charge states - except for some quantum states which were impossible to access, every "component" of the dematerialized entity had been recorded at the moment of dematerialization) - It was a simple matter to reassemble the entity - (albeit using matter synthesised from their energy - matter converter, as the original matter had been converted to energy and used to charge the starships energy banks - this was normal procedure during dematerialization operations - energy being "teleported" back so as to avoid destruction of half the planet if the matter had been allowed to directly convert to energy at the site of the dematerialization) 

Twenty milliseconds after he had vanished, FredM re-appeared with no knowledge of the drama he had been involved in. The only change which was "observable" was that this 20ms delayed the moment that FredM's posting to TW was transmitted - As future historians would later decode, this delay "caused" a chain of events leading to the 2e6 galactic wars, simply because this delay allowed a posting by Colapipe to appear before the posting by FredM.

I was never the same again.. LOL ;-) .. But lets just pretend the above was true - Would I be "me" if I was dematerialized and then rematerialized in an extremely short time "frame" ?

To me, this "story" encapsulates my greatest misgivings about the nature of my "reality" and even my "existance" - and links directly (for me) to my question about the validity of the statement " they are not you and I " - What are "you and I" ? ... Does our "continuity" and our "identity" actually have any "substance" to it - or is it just an illusion? The impossible to answer answer to this question is, I think, possibly embedded in my SF story - Summed up - If I was to cease to exist and an EXACT "replacement" for me (complete with identical neurological wiring with all electrical and chemical states IDENTICAL, and all memories IDENTICAL, and all other physics etc IDENTICAL) was to appear exactly where I had been, would I in fact have "ceased to exist" ?

If the answer to the above is "Yes" then I see the claim that " they are not you and I " would be true - If, however, the answer is "No" then I think the claim would be untrue.

I have no particular leaning towards either "answer" - I am inclined to think that the "pulsed" nature of brain operation implies that there is no "continuum" of existance - that, at every "update interval" I am, effectively, a different "person" albeit "biased" by memory etc to be the "same person" - That my "continuity of being" is an illusion - that, to put it bluntly, "I" do not actually exist - Not here, not anywhere... And this leads me to think that "they" are as much "you and I" as we are.

Fred.

Fred, have you read any Greg Egan (hard SF author)?  He wrote a couple of SF short stories about a small computing device placed inside of each human shortly after birth that examines all input and output of one's brain and attempts to predict the output (rather like back propagation - how a neural net simulator learns).  After a period of time the output of the device matches the output of the brain exactly, and the brain can then be removed and replaced by the device.  Most do this transition in their late 20's / early 30's when brain function and creativity are at their peak.  The device is quite robust, effectively giving the owner immortality.  He also wrote a couple of stories on alternate realities that are very interesting.  The 2001 movie "Xchange" is kind of fun too.

A bit tangential perhaps, but if you haven't read it, "On Intelligence" by Jeff Hawkins is an engineer's (Palm Pilot) take on how the brain functions.  A bit verbose and fluffy here and there, but much of it was new to me.  Particularly the layer count in our "new" brain and the specific-to-general layout and columnar functioning of the layers, the general purpose nature of the design that handles all sorts of different input, and the take-over of direct I/O with respect to the older brain.  I don't think he covered brain waves, which seem to be some kind of global clock?

Also, Steven Wright:  "The other day I woke up and noticed everything in my apartment had been stolen and replaced with an exact replica."

Fred: ......my "continuity of being" is an illusion - that, to put it bluntly, "I" do not actually exist - Not here, not anywhere... And this leads me to think that "they" are as much "you and I" as we are.

Fred,

It is as I had suspected. You are an advaitist! For the true advaitist, there is only One. All appearance of duality - you, me, planets, universes, even the notion of infinity - are figments, as ureal and insubstantial as a dream. From the standpoint of One, there is no one to ask "One WHAT?" and speculation about the nature of Oneness must always rest in the realm of the illusion of duality. 

This is a disheartening prospect for those who are convinced they exist. 

"Our revels now are ended. These our actors,
As I foretold you, were all spirits, and
Are melted into air, into thin air:
And like the baseless fabric of this vision,
The cloud-capp'd tow'rs, the gorgeous palaces,
The solemn temples, the great globe itself,
Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve,
And, like this insubstantial pageant faded,
Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff
As dreams are made on; and our little life
Is rounded with a sleep."

Shakespeare: THE TEMPEST

I suspect the 17th Earl of Oxford was an advaitist as well.

"It is as I had suspected. You are an advaitist!" - Coalport.

If I "am not" how can I be "an advaitist" ? LOL ..

Ok, here I disclose my ignorance about philosophy etc.. I had not encountered the term "advaitist" until your postings - I have since done a bit of research and, well, I must just say that I dont get it at all - I dont see how, even if my "continuum of existance / consciousness" is illusory (which I strongly suspect it is) this equates to the strange notions of "the one" I find in the (mostly incomprehensible to me) "scripts" on advaitist sites like this: http://www.advaitism.com/nutshell.html

But nonetheless it is exciting to discover other ideas - And I shall look into these matters more - at present though, my mental state is probably wrong for engaging with the advaitism ideas - At this time I find the essays so vague and, bluntly, boring and lacking in "substance" (LOL - perhaps not surprising if one thinks about the advaitist hypothesis.. ;-) that I cannot engage with it...

Also, I do not really think I am an "advaitist" for the same reason that I would not call myself a "hard athiest" - I think it is probably impossible to "know" anything with absolute certainty* - I am open to the possibilities, and may be more inclined to one set of "beliefs" than another - But (particularly where ideas are impossible to verify and/or have little "hard" evidence to substantiate them) I find it impossible to "embrace" an idea or "align myself" with any group who believes the idea.

*I think it is possible to prove a concept is false - but I do not think it is possible to prove something is true.

"Fred, have you read any Greg Egan (hard SF author)?  " - Dewster

No, I havent - but from your "synopsis" I will look out for his books .. I havent actually done much reading for years (at least, not much reading of fiction for pleasure) - the last SF I read (many years ago) was Greg Bears "Blood Music" which I loved, and which in some ways connects with ideas in this thread - One thread in this book related to nanites modifying humans and collecting / reconstructing data, and effectively "ressurecting" the "essence" of long deceased persons....

" I don't think he covered brain waves, which seem to be some kind of global clock? "

Yes, As I understand it,  it appears that transfer of data between sections of the brain is a multi-tasking (effectively multi-processor) function mitigated by several "clocks" - The low frequency waves being a master "sync" signal, with other higher frequency "clocks" mitigating operations within local processing functions.

Some recent discoveries on the nature of prioritization of processing, particularly WRT the visual cortex, indicate that this "synchronisation" is incredibly complex, and that some individual neurones are vastly more complex than previously thought - Complete computational units including local memory appear to be contained in some single neurone cells.

 For the first time recently, actual neural communication was observed across different sections of the brain, and actual tracing of the signal from "transmitter" to the "receptor" neurones was filmed... Sadly, as deeper complexity is revealed, my inability to fully comprehend what is being revealed becomes annoying to me - I am really at the junction now where I have to decide either to really study neurology, or to accept that I cannot "keep up" and just wade in the shallow water..

Fred.

"The other day I woke up and noticed everything in my apartment had been stolen and replaced with an exact replica."

LOL - Who can argue with that! ;-)

What's weird about the new brain is that the cells and structure look the same no matter where you inspect it.  The visual centers looks like the audio centers, which look like everything else.  They've transplanted sections from one to anther in rats and the transplants eventually assume the new functionality of the associated positioning, so it's a highly effective general purpose computing structure that nature stumbled upon.

The layer count evidently says something about intelligence, as whales and dolphins have fewer layers than we do.

Also, the new brain, existing as it does quite thinly enveloping the very outside of the brain mass, is quite vulnerable to injury, hence human's relatively easy permanent brain function loss due to minor concussion.

Fred: If I "am not" how can I be "an advaitist" ? LOL ..

There's no "LOL" about it!

For the true advaitist there is a singularity - all else is illusion including the suggestion of the philosophy of advaitism, and the fictitious advaitist who embraces it.

Let us not talk of the Absolute since there is absolutely nothing to discuss.

There are highly evolved beings in universes that parallel our own, and every once in a while they make conscious attempts to contact us. Most of the time we are simply too deeply asleep to know that such attempts are being made, but every once in a while something bubbles to the surface and we are momentarily awakened by a spark of amazement. 

I think the biggest problem for those in other universes who attempt to make contact is that the time frame is completely different. You have experienced, and continue to experience, many of these attempts and have been quite intrigued by them. Ultimately, however, you have more or less sloughed them off. That has changed nothing and the onslaught continues.

I suspect that it has recently intensified.

Beware! For the ordinary man, enlightenment (whatever THAT is) is just another face of madness.

Physics question: This posting is, AFAIK, not related to metaphysics or philosophy but is about "real" science.

Ok, I want to briefly change the subject..

I did a thought experiment which has puzzled me greatly.. I have tried (on different forums, and even by consulting some reputable on-line physics experts) to get an answer, but have not had any answer which was remotely satisfactory - and a lot of the replies I got indicated annoyance at my stupid question - "the energy you are questioning is so insignificant that it can be ignored" being the gist of most replies.

The problem, I think, is that this question fundamentally challenges Einstien's E=MC².. As I see it, this equation cannot be true if the first law of thermodynamics (conservation of mass and energy) is true, and I see no mechanism (system isolation, special relativity etc) which can mitigate the problem I found in my thought experiment.

Energy = Mass times the speed of light (C) squared...

If I had a golf ball at sea level, and I was able to convert this balls mass into energy, The energy (as I understand it) I would get from this conversion should be its mass times C squared.

If I was to whack this ball with super-hero strength so that it went to the ozone layer, miles above sea level, and was to convert it to energy at this location, E=MC² says that I should get would be the same as the energy I get if I had done this conversion at sea level...

But.. I have "expended" a lot of energy getting the ball to its new location - At its new location, this energy is "contained" in the ball in the form of potential energy - As in, the ball would fall to the ground, releasing thermal energy on its descent, and finally "releasing" the remainder of this potential energy when it struck the beach...

If, when the balls mass is converted to energy at the ozone layer, this potential energy is not somehow recovered (and there is no mechanism I can see within E=MC² to facilitate this recovery) then this (potential) energy appears to be lost.

It is true that, with the above example, the "lost" energy would be "trivial".. But, for me, the "quantity" of lost energy is irrelevant - it is the principle which bothers me.. As I see it, for E=MC² to be true, either M or C must vary proportional to the "hidden" energy "contained" in an object - or this "hidden" (potential) energy must be "contained" within the object in a form which is recoverable when the mass of the object is converted to energy... OR, the first law of thermodynamics has the error.

For a golf ball flung a few miles against gravity, the potential energy is "trivial".. But for stellar objects flung from exploding supernova or other enormously energetic cosmic events, the potential energy "contained in" these objects could be far from "trivial" - If this energy can be lost when these objects encounter a black hole, for example, then there could be a massive depletion of mass/energy from the universe.

I do not actually think that either E=MC² or the first law are likely to be "wrong" - but I suspect that there is something "missing" in one or both of these - perhaps something we have yet to discover.

I would be interested an any ideas or answers on the above.

Fred.

Oh hell - what have I got "myself" into ? LOL ;-)

"There's no "LOL" about it!" - Are you sure about that ?

"Let us not talk of the Absolute since there is absolutely nothing to discuss." - I agree.

"There are highly evolved beings in universes that parallel our own, and every once in a while they make conscious attempts to contact us. Most of the time we are simply too deeply asleep to know that such attempts are being made, but every once in a while something bubbles to the surface and we are momentarily awakened by a spark of amazement. 

I think the biggest problem for those in other universes who attempt to make contact is that the time frame is completely different. You have experienced, and continue to experience, many of these attempts and have been quite intrigued by them. Ultimately, however, you have more or less sloughed them off. That has changed nothing and the onslaught continues." - Coalport

I have a real problem with the above - not because I think it is impossible - but because I see no way of knowing whether the "onslaught " you talk of  is due to  efforts from "those in other universes" or whether it is "simply" the result of my present physical and mental state - and the fact that I have much more time now to indulge in "mind games" than possibly any other time in my life.

Furthermore, the "fact" that many people seem to be undergoing some strange "awakening" process at this time, whilst interesting, is not enough to convince me (yet ;-) that some great cosmic influence or attempt at communication by "highly evolved beings" is occurring - This MAY be what is happening, but likewise, it may just be the way that (due perhaps partly to the internet facilitating communications between diverse minorities who, until recently, believed they were alone) this is the natural progression - the inevitable, given the matrix of causal determinants in place at this time.

"Beware! For the ordinary man, enlightenment (whatever THAT is) is just another face of madness." - I have no fear of being branded "mad" (except if my Ferengi wife managed to get me classified as such, and therebye gained the ability to apply unreasonable control of my access to my children when our divorce is granted) by the "ordinary man" (whatever THAT is)

Fred.

Ps.. I am starting to think that perhaps you are an advaitist, Peter!  ;-)